Episode 70: Give Your Inner (or Actual) Child a Sex Positive Talk (with Melissa Carnagey)
How has your experience of your sexual self been shaped by what you grew up understanding (or not) about sex? In this one, Ev’Yan speaks with Melissa Carnagey (she/they) about what it means to raise sex positive kids. Melissa speaks about why “age appropriate” sex ed might not be as useful as you think and what to do instead, why this work is so controversial in culture right now, and where to actually start when approaching sex and body talks with young ones (and it’s not with a particular book). At the end, Ev’Yan shares a sensual practice to help you connect to and reparent your younger self around sex positivity.
The full transcript of this episode is below.
Links/mentions:
Melissa’s book, Sex Positive Talks to Have with Kids
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Melissa is a renowned sexuality educator, best-selling author, and leading national voice for sex positive education. Her work with Sex Positive Families has been featured in Huffington Post, Parents Magazine, CNN, New York Times, Buzzfeed, and reaches thousands of families around the globe via an engaged social media following and monthly live workshops. Sex Positive Families is guided by the belief that all children deserve holistic, comprehensive, and shame-free sexuality education so they can live informed, empowered, and safer lives. Melissa is confident this work starts in homes. Find them on Instagram and on their website sexpositivefamilies.com.
Transcription:
Hey, welcome to Sensual Self. I'm Ev'Yan Whitney and this is a space for you to slow down, tune in, heal and feel the sensations and pleasures of your sensual body. Thank you for being here.
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How old were you when you first learned about sex? If you had the talk, how did that conversation go? What did you learn? And how different do you think your experience of sexuality and your relationship to your body would be if you had been given different information?
That last question is something I've turned over in my mind a lot, as I continue to understand the shapes and textures of shame I've internalized in my body about sex. A little backstory, I received the talk at around age six or seven, I can't totally remember the age. And that was when my parents sat me down, showed me illustrated pictures of naked adults, and explained to me how babies were made. And fun fact, the entire reason why this conversation happened was because I had just walked in on my parents having sex or something like that. And I think my parents freaked out and felt like the conversation needed to happen right then, immediately, so that I wouldn't ask any more questions.
So the conversation happened. And I remember being really confused. Not just because I just came off the heels of seeing my dad on top of my mom in a weird way. But also because the drawings of naked white people were just weird. I didn't walk away from that conversation, understanding really anything about the physical act of sex, or the nuances of sexuality or desire or consent. I didn't walk away from that conversation understanding my own sexuality and my own relationship with my body and pleasure. I was mostly just freaked out by the sight of a penis, which was the first time I ever saw one. And all of the pubic hair. Oh my god, this was in the 90s and there was so much pubic hair.
And that was about the extent of a formal sex talk, sex education for me. From there, I grew up swaddled in purity culture. I signed a purity contract through my church when I was eight. My first of two contracts, if you can believe it. And I received a mostly abstinence-only sex education throughout the formative years of my life, which basically looked like being told that sex was one of the most profound and precious things you could ever experience in life, but don't have it, don't even think about having it until your wedding night, which without question was meant to be between a man and a woman. And in the meantime, while I waited for that fateful wedding night, my virginity was held up as the most important feature of my existence, and my ability to maintain my virginity, to deny the urges of my body, to be a good girl and erase any curiosity about my sexual self, that was where my worth and value lied, not just for me, but also for my family. And to make sure I stayed untouched from sexual temptation, the literal fear of God was put into me about what happens to girls who stray from this path of purity, who lose their virginity outside of marriage. And I'm not even talking about having full sexual intercourse. If I so much as had a dirty thought, if I ever explored my body with myself or others in a way that wasn't god-like, I was a sinner and sinners go directly to hell. They do not pass go, they do not collect $200, they just burn and how for all eternity.
So that was what I grew up understanding about sex and that is one of the reasons why I am so messed up when it comes to sex and sexuality because of those teachings in my formative years. There were many, many other insidious things that shaped my understanding of sex as I was growing up. I think about how my parents shielded my eyes whenever a sex scene started on a movie, like what that implied. I think about witnessing boys and men having way more leniency to carry on sexually. I think about how I was quickly understanding, despite my purity-culture existence, that the world was soaked in sex, obsessed with sex, and folks used sex as a way to level up their worth and belonging, or exert power over people. So suffice it to say, I grew up really fucking confused and messed up when it came to sex. It's hard to see why I wouldn't be.
And this is why my mind continues to circle around that question: How different would you be if you had grown up with different narratives about sex and sexuality, and your own body? And, my God, I would be so different. So, so different. And I grapple a lot with grief when I think about who I could have been if I had been given different stories. If I had received a more comprehensive, sex-positive, consent-informed sex education. My heart really aches, honestly, for the version of myself, that was never allowed to be fully free, that I was never allowed to fully experience.
If I had had one adult in my life, one sane voice who could have taken me aside and given me a different perspective, one that normalized and encouraged my sexual curiosity, one that directed me toward understanding the importance of my yes, as well as my no, one that talked to me about gender and sexual orientation and pleasure, outside of cisheteronormativity, I would be a totally different person today. And not just different, I would be less traumatized. I would feel less shame. I would have more confidence in my ability to be sexual in the first place. Folks often ask me why I got into this work of sexuality doulaship and education, and this, everything that I just shared, that is the reason. I mean, the work that I do as a sexuality doula is to be of service to others. But I also do it for me, to give myself the sex education that I didn't receive when I was younger, and to disrupt this tradition of shame and stigma and violence of silence about sex in my immediate family lineage. All of that shit will stop with me.
This is one of the reasons I have so much respect for comprehensive sex educators, particularly those who work with younger folks. They're truly doing revolutionary work, to not just give children and teens sexual education that doesn't harm or hinder their sexuality. They're also helping parents create a relationship with their kids, where they can have honest and appropriate conversations about sex, making more room for connection and trust and honesty. And that's exactly who I'm speaking with today.
Melissa Carnagey is a renowned sexuality educator, best-selling author, and a leading national voice for sex-positive education. Her work in Sex Positive Families is guided by this belief that all children deserve holistic, comprehensive, and shame-free sexuality education, so that they can live informed, empowered and safer lives. Melissa believes that this work starts in the home. And in this episode, we talk about how we as adults, can help shape, support, and nurture the young ones in our lives to help them flourish within their unique sexuality and gender expression without shame. I'm a big fan of Melissa and the work she does and I loved this conversation we had. I mean, even if you don't have kids, what Melissa offers is space for those of us who had questionable or nonexistent sex education to feel into what could have been possible. And my inner younger self felt really held really encouraged and moved by Melissa's words.
Okay, y'all, I've been talking long enough. Let's go ahead and get into this episode. I'm going to leave you to listen to me and Melissa speak and stay til the end for a practice to help you embody what's being shared and explored here.
Okay, enjoy!
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Melissa, welcome to Sensual Self. I'm so happy to have you here.
Melissa Carnagey
Thank you so much for having me on. This is such an honor.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes, I'm so glad you're here too. I've been wanting to have a conversation with you on the show for a while now, because I deeply respect what you do. I admire the way that you talk about a subject that is so controversial right now. And it really shouldn't be because the way that you do the work that you do as a comprehensive sex educator, you do it with so much grace and so much ease. And I just have a lot of respect for folks like you who are doing this important work of teaching kids and young ones, how to be in relationship with their bodies, and be in relationship with sex and sexuality in ways that are very counter to the ways that I was raised. So I just want to thank you for the work that you do, I want to thank you for the way that you show up to the folks who just really need your guidance. And you've just-- I refer so many people out to you. Because I get this question a lot. People are like, "Okay, this is all cool” and like “Sexual liberation for me as an adult, that's great. But like, how do I do this with my kids? Like, how do I create conversations with them so that they're not raised with confusion or fear about sex and sexuality, the way that I was raised?" So thank you so much for the work that you do.
Melissa Carnagey
I receive that. I receive that. And, you know, I'd love for us all to be out of business. That, you know, in reality, I'd love for us to live in a world where we're not needed, because all of this is just inherently known and supported and honored. But it's not. And we've got a lot of stuff to kind of help clean up. And it really is a community effort. And so I absolutely value, you know, what you're doing to support adults, you know, and to help folks really rewrite the messages and the narratives that have guided so many of us in a way that hasn't served us and hasn't truly honored us. And so I appreciate you know how you just frame that again, I mean, it really is about breaking that cycle and creating something powerful for a new generation. And there's so much healing that we can find in that whether we identify as parents, whether we identify as caring adults or caregivers, whether we are youth or family serving professionals, all of us have some proximity to young people in our lives, even if it's a neighbor, you know, someone that lives in your neighborhood or a fifth family member, that is a young person. And so it's how can we be that caring adult that we needed that so many of us needed?
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes, yes. I um-- I'm really curious to hear what you think or why you think these conversations are so hard for people. I get this question a lot in my work, as I said before, where adults are like, how do I translate these conversations of sex positivity and sexual liberation in an age appropriate way with my kids? Why do you think it's so difficult for us to formulate these questions or formulate these conversations with the young ones in our lives?
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah, so it's a couple of things. One, it's very hard to duplicate something that we haven't received or experienced ourselves. It takes a lot of courage, bravery, unlearning, relearning. And so that's many times what's a strong factor is that we didn't grow up in a sex positive, home many of us. We didn't grow up with quality, comprehensive, inclusive sexuality education. So it's hard then to know where to start or how to frame all of this or when's the right time, if we didn't experience that ourselves. And another part is trauma. There are so many adults walking this earth that have experienced some form of trauma, whether it was consent violations that happened in and outside their homes, whether it was sexual abuse, sexual trauma, there are so many and even just witnessing unhealthy relationships and unhealthy dynamics. There are so many ways, again, that this can be triggering for adults to have these conversations. And even especially if you're parenting, raising someone through different stages, if you've experienced some sort of trauma, you might find it's very common to find that when a young person that you might be raising comes to that age range by which you might have experienced trauma or violation, you may find it again, even more triggering and even harder. And that could sometimes look like you know, being hyper-protective, you know, at that certain time, which then can be confusing. Then, well, 'should I talk about this?' 'Should I not?' Or 'how should I talk about this as far as from a protective place?' And so it creates a lot of self-doubt about how do I go about these conversations, or, you know, sometimes it's the opposite. And it's, then well, 'I'll create an even more liberating or an even more open environment'. But sometimes, even that, you know, depending on what that looks like, or seems like for that person, sometimes that level of extreme openness around these things can sometimes not be healthy, or could cross healthy boundaries. So again, it just-- we don't have a lot of-- we haven't had a lot of really good examples of how to do this, and what even the outcomes may be when it's done effectively.
Ev'Yan Whitney
I really appreciate you naming that, because it's so true. Like, I think about my own upbringing, and how I wish that my mom and dad would have given me different lessons or perspectives about sex and my own body. But like they were coming from a paradigm that was given to them, like, that's how they were raised. My grandparents taught them the things that they eventually would teach me. And, yeah, it's, it's-- I think that's why I'm so passionate about this, this work that you do, because you're really working to break these intergenerational traditions that we've had around sex shame, stigma, being silenced like not-- like, just not talking about it. And that is a huge-- to me, that is that's just like, just a revolution. Like the fact that, that you are working with people who may have been raised in a way that is very different to the way that you're teaching them about sex and sexuality. And now they're shaping this next generation with more positivity and more communication and more support than so many of us have gotten.
Melissa Carnagey
Absolutely, absolutely. And as I shared earlier, it's really that healing piece when we get in the practice of doing these things in a very different way and approaching this relationship with a young person in a very different way. That just provides us with so much healing. And so so yeah, it's just that a lot of the work that I do is just helping to break it all down and make it more palatable and show folks how and what that can look like in everyday life. What are the best resources to use, because there are also many ways to approach it. It's not all about, you know, just a class that a person, you know, may take, or it's not just about one book that might be presented to someone. And I love the fact that we have so many brilliant educators and sexuality professionals that are getting so creative and creating so many amazing tools and resources to help these conversations to feel engaging, to feel fun, to feel less intimidating and less taboo.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Mmm, yes. Where-- when you're talking to a parent who comes to you, and it's like, okay, I need help in beginning a conversation with my kids or with a little one in my life around sex and sexuality. Where's the first place that you tell them to start?
Melissa Carnagey
Well, the first place, if they're the initiator, because sometimes, sometimes especially, you know, with younger kids, you know, you don't get a heads up. And your child just wants to know the answer to you know something of, “Where do babies come from?” right? And then you're, you feel like you're on the spot. But when you're seeking to initiate and start, you know, the conversation, then I would say that starting with yourself first, right? Take a look at what are the messages you've received growing up when it comes to bodies, when it comes to consent? When it comes to identity, healthy relationships? What did you come to learn or observe about these things, because often, again, that can tell us about what might trigger us, where we might have some gaps in our own knowledge, or in our own understanding of some of these things, which could lead to us feeling less confident, feeling more withdrawn around these topics, or more silent around these topics. So I say taking a look at ourselves can be really important. And if you are parenting, or caregiving with another person, another adult, having those conversations together, you know, What was your sex ed, like, when you were growing up? Did you get any kind of sex ed, right, like, just unpacking that together because that will reveal a lot. And sometimes you'll also find, you know, what are one of our strengths or comfort levels around certain topics? What are some of the things that make us really uncomfortable and that we feel we maybe could use some more support around? And then you can kind of tag team some of the things right, based on that. So it doesn't have to all fall on one person or one parent. That's one thing I love to help break down for folks. Because of you know, the gender stereotypes. You know, it's like, oh, well, when it comes to talking to a son, you know, it's got to be a father, you know, or an uncle that talks to them, right? Or we'll wait till your dad gets home to answer that or, or we'll wait to your mom gets home, before I talk to you about menstruation or periods. You know, if I'm a father, you know, or someone that doesn't have a uterus. And that's something that I really like to help break down, because it really is all of us. And even if we don't have these particular body parts aren't really sure exactly what it feels like to have them or to know exactly what they do, there's so many resources and so much information.
And it's also a way of letting that young person know that you are a safe person, a trusted adult, who they can come to be curious. And that's a huge part of it. You can always look things up together. Anything that you don't know, it's also really powerful to be able to say, 'You know what? That's a great question. I'm so glad you asked. I don't know. Let's look that up together'. Or 'I'll look that up. And I'll get back to you', and then actually get back to them. All of that lets them know that there's nothing wrong with asking questions about this. There are no taboos in our home. And that ultimately helps to keep them safer. Because if something were to happen to their body, or if they were to witness something or be shown something, we would want them to feel like they could come to us or someone in their world that we know has their best interest in mind. So those are important pieces to keep in mind as to why it's so important to break the silence and break the taboos. And just create that space where young people can feel honest and authentic and where they feel like they're understood and seen.
Ev'Yan Whitney
I love how you answered that question with starting with yourself first. Like starting with your own personal history, the ways that you grew up understanding sex and sexuality, how that talk was for you. And also like your own sexual history, like what things trigger you when it comes to sex and using that as a way to inform the conversation that you might have or the ways that you might need to show up or change the way you show up when you're having conversations with kids and young ones about sex. I love that I I wasn't expecting that I was actually expecting you to be like so first we're going to talk about bodies.
Melissa Carnagey
I love that you share that. I love that you're saying that because I think that's the misinformation, right? That's the stereotype that a lot of people have and that is where it becomes intimidating. Because people are like, well, but I don't know the answer that it's you know, it's not all about just giving facts or you know, saying them in a certain sequence or order or in a certain age. One of my colleagues and you know, and favorite fellow educators Justine Ang Fonte, she uses age relevant, as opposed to, you know, a lot of times you hear the term what's age appropriate. Age appropriateness is subjective, you know, and it's often informed by, you know, the individual’s judgment and their own experiences and their own agendas. But what's relevant to a young person is unique to each young person, you know, if you, for example, you know, are raising a six year old who they have a teacher in their class who is pregnant, and they come to you asking then, you know, about where babies come from, or asking about pregnancy because in at that time in their life that feels really relevant to them, because there's someone in their world that, you know, is pregnant. So for when we create, sometimes when we create these different tools, and we talk about, you know, ages and stages, sometimes that can be a little misleading, because, you know, then it has some people saying, 'Okay, well, I'll just wait. I'll just wait until they're nine'. You know, before I talked about this, before I talk about that. And, you know, it's important for us to see that our young people are whole and separate beings, they are sexual beings. And that is not all about adult sex and eroticism, it's very much, you know, an aspect of being human our whole lives. So again, there's a lot of reframing that many of us can benefit from and where a lot of the education that I love to do to help adults have that lightbulb aha moment like, 'oh, oh, wait a second', you know, 'I can build this relationship with my young person over time'. It's not just about hitting marks at certain ages or hitting topics at certain ages. It's just really about creating that safe space over time through many, many different talks and moments.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Hmm, yeah, I'm thinking about my own sex education and how my sex education was given in one talk and how daunting that must feel for like my parents at the time to like, 'Okay, we got to hit all of these, all of these topics, we got to make sure we touch on the genitalia, how babies are born, the sperm, the ova', like all of that. And like I do, I do think that there's something really beautiful about framing the sex talk as the sex talks, like talks that you will have with your kids throughout the years about sex because they change. Their curiosities, and their questions change. And I love what you mentioned about your colleague, Justine reframing age appropriateness to age relevance. That is so... that's so holistic, like, I love that. And it's, it's just a different way to-- it's a different way to view these conversations. And I almost wonder if you've seen for folks like a little bit of like, relief around like, Oh, I'm not having to find what is age-appropriate, like nine that's the age that we talk about this and 12, that's the age we talk about this, but there's a little bit more spaciousness and room to breathe and, and like have some organicness around these conversations.
Melissa Carnagey
Oh, yes. And that organicnesss is so important when you are raising kids, because kids have really great bullshit meters. They will be able to tell, you know, when you are anxious or nervous, or when you're not giving them the truth, right. And all of those things, you know, it's absolutely okay to be your full, whole human self. Even if in that moment, that means I'm nervous, I'm anxious. I don't know what to say, I don't know what I'm doing. And like, so the real magic is, and what a lot of us again, didn't experience from our parents or caregivers in the generation before us, is how about we try something different to get a different result? How about we just be honest and human with our young people? And we say, ‘That's a really great question. I'm really glad that you asked and that you trusted to ask that to me. I don't know. I'm actually getting a little nervous thinking about it, not because it's a bad question, or it's bad for you to think that. But when I was young, no one really talked to me about this stuff. So I'm learning a lot of things myself. And so thank you for being patient with me. Let's check out this book. I saw this cool website or I saw this great book, let's go to the library. Let's go grab this” you know. So there's so many resources now and I do believe with my whole soul, that if many of our parents and prior generations had the resources that we have and the education that we have available to us today, and act access to a lot of this stuff, they would have used it, you know. They didn't have it, there was so much gain so much more gatekeeping when it came to education, and, you know, media and our access to, you know, thought leaders. And so, you know, reminding ourselves that we have these tools, and we get to choose our own adventure, especially in parenting, and figuring out, you know, how can we make this a different experience a more whole and healed experience for our young people so that they're less likely to face the same challenges that so many of us are having to overcome.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes, the way that you're describing this, the way that you're talking about this, this is gonna sound a little woowoo. But like, I feel like, I feel like baby Ev'Yan who didn't get that education is being like, is being held in this moment, you know. And, yeah, it's just, that feels so good. And so nourishing, and I ache, I think, my my baby self aches for not having had that kind of, yeah, not having had that kind of experience.
Melissa Carnagey
They deserve that. And it's not just something that, you know, again, we have to wait until we're adults and, and that's, and that's a whole nother thing, right is like, and so many of us have this lived experience, unfortunately. And that's what the Me Too movement, you know, was, was what's fed the Me Too movement is that so many of us entered into adulthood, without the tools, without the information, the knowledge without the self awareness. And we come into the world with ourselves, right with our bodies, and so much of what of the world in the years that we are growing, pulls us apart from that, from that inner knowing, and from that connection to our body. So then we enter into adulthood, and so many of us are, like pretending like we don't even know what it really means to be adults, or really, it means to have sex or to have be in a relationship and all of that, right. And so again, this is just an opportunity to be able to provide the information that helps our young people make informed choices, and helps them to stay connected to themselves and their knowing, that's what will help keep them safer, that's what will help them to have satisfying sex lives, that will help them to be able to live in their whole identities and their whole selves, you know, more honestly and authentically. And it's just, it's so important for the greater good of this world. When we have so many people doing that. And of course, you know, capitalism, white supremacy doesn't want that. Doesn't want all of us to be awake in that way and attuned in that way. And so yes, this is a revolution, and you all are invited.
Ev'Yan Whitney
That's right. That's right. Yeah, I, I don't want to spend too much time on this. Because I don't want to-- I don't want to have this beautiful space that has been created within what you're sharing here, be diluted or distracted. But I did want to just like mention, because it's a very real thing that's happening to all sex educators across the board, but particularly sex educators who work with kids and young ones. This this act of violence of trying to stop y'all from and me, but I'm speaking specifically to you about you and the work that you do to stop you from doing your job. There's been a lot of stuff in the media, Don't Say Gay bills that are really creating an atmosphere of hostility and a lot of fear and misinformation and ignorance about the work that you do. And I just wonder if you could, I don't know speak to what you're seeing, what you're noticing, what you've experienced, to whatever extent that you're willing to share, around this hostile environment that's been created for sex educators like yourself.
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah, you articulated that so well, and so, so accurately. It definitely feels like an assault and an attack in that it's hard sometimes to know where the safe spaces are, where there may be some level of protection and for me doing the work very much online and virtually using social media as one avenue to connect with parents and caring adults. Definitely, in that space, there's a lot of censorship, a lot of shadow banning, I've actually taken a pause, you know, from creating content in the way that I did for the first four years of this as a way to protect myself, you know, from the onslaught of attack and commentary and, you know, things like doxing, like, there's just so much that we face and like you said, when it comes to teaching or working with young people and children, there's a lot of that negative and harmful framing, that, you know, we're child abusers or molesters, we're predators, because we're teaching young people to understand their bodies and healthy relationships, you know. They completely twist the narrative.
And it's very, very sad, it's very sad, it's very harmful, it will keep people if people don't have comprehensive, inclusive, holistic, liberatory sexuality education, we will stay in chains, essentially, right like to, to what this society benefits from, by trying to sell us things constantly, that we really don't need because if we think there's something wrong with our bodies, to make laws that restrict our access to our whole selves, and the health and wellness of our bodies, and our ability to be autonomous in our decision making about our bodies and our lives and our goals and our futures. So it is it Yeah. It's benefiting them to do what they're doing. And so it's just been a challenge to figure out how to navigate that, and how not to give up, you know, in the face of that, and not just allow fear to consume you.
I will say that there's such a strong community within this field of sex education, and so much camaraderie, and so much passion and clear sense of purpose. So we're not just giving up and we're not just giving in. And I think we're also bringing in a lot more, not just allies, but accomplices. And there are, there's a big movement of parents and caregivers who are saying, 'wait a second, no, you're not going to just be allowed to say what books my kids can or can't have access to, or what education and information my kids can or can't have access to'. So it is causing a real shake up that I'm excited about. And because parenting people have a lot of influence when it comes to what their young people are getting from systems like schools. So I really encourage and we have been creating a lot more resources in partnerships with other organizations like Educate Us, and seek us so that we can get involved with what can we do, especially when it comes to voting. What can we do with the power that we do have to stop this from happening? Because it has a grave impact and effect.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, it's it's-- I hate this era that we're in I really do. And also, what I'm hearing you say is that this era is helping to shake up people and really get people into action around the things that are being shifted or taken out of their control. And that makes me feel good to know that, that there there are folks mobilizing in the direction of of liberation and making sure that kids, families, parents have choice, as opposed to just like this huge unilateral decision of like, we're not going to talk about sex. We're not gonna talk about sexuality at all. It's really harmful. It's really really harmful, especially like I can speak to that as someone who grew up in an abstinence-only Don't Ask Don't Tell kind of family. I'm happy to hear that folks are getting behind this as a cause.
Melissa Carnagey
Definitely, there's hope, there's hope. And there's action that's happening. And it's, it's really what's going to save us. And I'll also say on that, that a lot of young people, a lot of young people are getting involved and are starting to create programs, you know, that are giving sex education to themselves, you know, and to their peers. And, and I just love that, you know, it's I really believe that is the young people that are going to save us.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes, yes, that's right. That's right. Okay, switching, switching gears a little bit, I am having this question come up, that I feel maybe others have experienced, or maybe they're grappling with, in this moment, around, you know, maybe they are a sex positive person. And they believe in, you know, autonomy, and agency and consent, and all of these wonderful things that you talk about in your work. But the parent that they know, is raising their kid in a way that isn't sex positive, and they are feeling frustrated. And also like, I don't know what to do, because I'm watching this kid get information that is not helpful. That is harmful in a lot of ways. But I'm not their parent. What advice do you give for folks like that, who don't have a direct, like parent to kid relationship with the child, but they can, they can see like, oh, man, I know this friend. And I know that the way that they're raising their kid is, is not the most sex positive. And also, this, this other aspect of like, not wanting to step on the parents toes by being like, 'Hey, by the way, kid, your mom, totally insane when it comes to the conversation, she's giving you about sex'. 'So come over here, we're gonna get some ice cream, and I'm gonna teach you everything you need to know', like wanting to wanting to disrupt the sex negative conversations that they think that the kid might be getting, but not doing it in a way that is going to be harmful or hurtful to the parent, or disrespectful.
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah, totally. Yeah. So this is such a great question and dilemma that is very, very real. And there's not one answer or approach because, again, the root, the different relational dynamics can be unique. And so I'll offer you know, some things to consider. You know, one, and I'll say this, at the core of it all is communication. And again, that's something that so many of us didn't receive a solid education or modeling around healthy communication and honest, vulnerable communication. So then it makes it challenging for us to have conversations, especially if they feel like they could be confrontational. But it, it is important to see that you do have influence. So then what, and that's all that you can control. So if you're the if you feel that you're the sex positive person who is seeing something that doesn't, you know, feel like it's helpful, then know first, you know, what influence do I have in this situation? What do I actually have control over? And typically, we only have control over ourselves. And so putting that into some perspective is important, because that helps to keep us to be more effective in whatever approach we might take. And to balance out some of the emotions that we might feel around what we may feel we're observing happening. And so one option is speaking with that other adult, if you feel safe to do so, if you feel like you have some rapport with them, you know, being honest, and whether that looks like saying, hey, you know, I noticed that you know, told, you know, the child, such and such, I observe you saying such and such and say, tell me more about that, like, what, what, where did you learn that? Or, you know, what are your values around that, because I actually learned something a little different, or I've been learning something new about that.
And it's been helping me to understand that in a different way. And so like if just opening up the conversation, because many times people just are doing their best. And they don't always have, you know, the most effective or accurate tools to draw from, and many times if they're approached in a way that invites them to, you know, see things in a different or new way, or gives them is offer offering them the tools offering help and support, many times people will accept. They might initially depending on their personality, they might initially see something or feel something as like some kind of attack. And know that that is a real thing. When it comes to parents and parenting people, I'm a parent. So I can say this, I have a 23 year old, I have a 12 year old and I have a nine year old bonus son. And so I know that there's so much pressure that we absorb that this world gives us that projects onto us to take care of these children, to protect them to raise them to be people that don't harm others, that also won't be harmed themselves. There's just so many unrealistic expectations that get put on us as parents and parenting people. And so know that it can be hard to receive feedback, sometimes about something that you are just trying so hard to do. And so if especially if you're not also a parenting person, and you're looking to approach a parent about, you know, something that you feel like you're noticing, or something you'd like to share with them, just holding that sense of compassion over the fact that, wow, I think that they might be doing their very best, and how can I approach them in this moment, or with this particular question, or curiosity, you know, or concern in a way that acknowledges that they're trying their best, right? So I noticed I see that so and so your child asked you that question, I thought that was so awesome, that they felt like they could come to you. So celebrating something positive that you're seeing happen to that you're observing. And then saying, you know, offering something different, or something new as a way to give them a resource.
Also, you can offer yourself maybe offering in a way that reminds them of the community that they have available to them. And so letting them know that, you know, hey, if if Johnny ever needed to talk about his body, or what's going on in their life or their relationships, who are the people that you feel they can turn to? I'd love to be one of those people. What, how can how might I be able to do that? Where Where do you feel the boundaries are? So still honoring that parents that primary caregivers role, and asking, you know, letting them know your intentions and asking them where they would feel comfortable. And then you know, having to honor that. But you know, sometimes folks get in a situation where they have created a positive bond, you know, with a with a young person, and that young person is coming to them saying they've got like something that they want them to keep a secret or, you know, something that they're coming to them in confidence about. And the way I approached this, and I recommend it again, if we think about what's the ultimate goal, we want the young person to understand healthy boundaries, we want them to understand how they can use their resources to help keep them safer. And so assuming there's not like a safety concern, you know, with their primary adults or anything like that, if it's just, they just feel like they can come to you, and they want to talk to you about this, you know, but it ultimately is something that their parent should know, then we need to also use communication, to be honest with that young person and say, again, I'm so glad that you felt comfortable coming to me with this. I honor that. And that means a lot to me. I do feel like this is something that your parent needs to know about. Tell me what your comfort level is with sharing this, or some part of this. You know, so exploring, exploring that with a young person, not just right away saying okay, yeah, so I'm gonna keep that secret for you. Because ultimately that that sends a mixed message. And that could be unsafe, or more damaging, depending.
So yeah, it's not one answer. Sorry, unfortunately. But it's really about, you know, communication, and how can we kind of think of what's the bigger picture? What do we really want to walk away with? You know, what are the current relationship dynamics that we have that we can lean on? How can we, you know, give grace and hold compassion for people that are just trying their best? And that's why the work that we do, we're serving a lot of caring adults, not just parents, because we know again, that there are a lot of adults who are the trusted adult for a young person in this world and but they aren't in that primary caregiver role. And so by knowing by giving them the resources, so that they can use their influence in a positive way, that's another way that we can impact you know, this world?
Ev'Yan Whitney
I loved that answer. I know it wasn't simple. And I know it wasn't like black or white. But I loved that. I mean, you offered so much. You offered so much in that answer. And I think it's, it's really helpful for folks who are grappling with that situation, to give them some tools about how they can move around it. So thank you. Thank you for sharing that. As we close this conversation, I wondered, and you've already offered so much. So feel free to just like repeat some of the things you've already said. But I'm just curious about what tips you would offer to parents or adults or people who are about to be parents in some capacity. What tips would you give us to help us raise this next generation with more body awareness and more sex positivity?
Melissa Carnagey
Being honest. Being honest, and again, seeing the relationship that you have and influence that you have with a young person as an opportunity, not a threat. And as the chance to help build a solid foundation. And so the earlier parents can start creating that openness, creating that shame free environment, of course, the better. But if you're listening to this, and you have a 16 year old, and you're like, 'Oops, I have not been doing any of these things'. This is not a call out. This is an invitation. And so if you feel like you need to do some course correcting, again, honesty, and that might look like going to your young person after you listen to this and saying, you know, I was listening to this really, really great podcast today. And it was really making me think about something that we haven't really been talking enough about. Bodies, sex, relationships, I haven't been doing a good job of creating openness around that. And then you can just why be honest and vulnerable and explain why. And for many of us, it might be that, because that wasn't done for me. And I've struggled to figure out how to be open with you, I've been afraid of I was going to tell you too much, or that I wasn't going to tell you enough, or I was afraid that you'd go tell the whole playground. Like you know, just be real, just be real and be honest. And take it as an opportunity to connect, and to maybe chip away at some constructed walls. So that you all can rebuild. And you can build something new and connected.
And you don't have to make any immediate promises, you can say, I understand that this isn't going to mean that you want to just talk to me and tell me all the things. All the things aren't for me to always know, right? But I want you to know that I want to put forth an effort towards connecting with you so that you know that I'm here if you ever have a question, if you ever need support related to your body, related to your relationships, if there's ever something that you're concerned about, or something unsafe, that's happened, I want you to know that I'm here for you. And I'll do a better job of making it feel safe for you to come to me. And so doing that it's planting a seed. And it's allowing a door to be cracked a little further open. And rest assured that then just be conscious. Be conscious of how you're showing up not just in the words you say, but just in your nonverbals also, right and how are you creating that openness in the home. Thinking about how does consent, boundaries, healthy boundaries, how does that show up in your home and in the way that you will, whoever's in your home navigates that. And connect to resources because there are many, many resources. Our website sexpositivefamilies.com is a treasure trove of resources that can help you learn where to start, no matter if you know, you don't even have kids yet, but you're looking to have kids or if you have like nibbling is in your life, like whatever that looks like or if you again, have a teenager or book Sex Positive Talks to Have with Kids: A Guide to Raising Sexually Healthy, Informed, Empowered Young People, that takes you through every age and stage from birth through the teen years with conversation starters and insights that will help you create that openness and raise a powerful next generation. So lean into the many tools and the support that's available to us today.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Ah, Melissa, thank you. You already plugged your book. Is there anything else that you would like for people to connect with you on in terms of the internet, anything that you're working on that folks should be on the lookout for?
Melissa Carnagey
Yeah, thank you. So we're over on Instagram and on Facebook, sex positive families on Instagram we're @sexpositive_families. And so definitely, we're in our Instagram Stories, a lot promoting things that we have going on. And one of the things that is our signature that we love, love love to do every single month, we have a live virtual workshop called Growing Into You. It is a puberty workshop. So for ages eight to 12, and they're trusted adults. So we're teaching whole families, not just the young person, not just the adult, altogether, they sell out every single time. And we're talking about bodies, the diverse the diverse diversity of bodies, how bodies grow, and how they can change over time and preparing young people across the gender spectrum and gender galaxy, we're preparing young people to better understand their bodies and to see the primary adults in their life as trusted sources for support. So Growing Into You, we also have a self paced version for folks that don't want to be on like a live zoom, if they're zoomed out. Or if you're in, you know, other time zones, we have people literally from around the world that tune in and join us and participate. But we also have a self paced version. And it's a great resource if you've got young people that are entering into or going through puberty.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Beautiful, thank you for giving us those offerings. And I want to encourage everyone to check out your book as well. And thank you so much again, for for coming on the show today. I really appreciate it. Thank you.
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I'm just sitting here, feeling in total awe of the people I know, the people I get to speak to on this podcast and these areas of sexuality, pleasure, liberation. And I just feel so lucky that I get to do this, that I get to converse with someone like Melissa, who offered so much and really touched my heart, and also baby Ev'Yan's heart throughout this conversation. Big love and gratitude to Melissa for her work for the space she opened up for us here. And for being a shining light to parents and kids. I really, really feel that the work she's doing is liberation work. It is healing work. And I love what she brought into this space around connecting to yourself and the stories you've learned and internalized about sex, before you begin to have conversations of curiosity and positivity with the little ones in your life.
And because my younger self feels like she got a lot of acknowledgment today, it's making me wonder about your younger self, and what it might be like to bring them into a little practice today. So for your sensual practice, I want to see you make some time to be with your younger self, to really be in this version of you, to really be with this version of you and carve out time to acknowledge them and feel them in your own body. I'm going to walk you through a practice now that is part journaling, part meditation, part somatic noticing, and you're welcome to pause this episode for now until you want to come back to the practice. Or you can give it a listen through so you know what to expect and then decide if it resonates with you. And if all of this doesn't totally resonate, take what does and leave the rest.
So first start by picking an age that feels important to you. It could be five or 11 or 16. Whatever feels good to you. And think about who you were during that time. What you liked to do for fun. The music you listened to, the shows you watched. Who you wanted to be when you grew up. The nicknames you were called. Games that you played. If you have pictures of yourself at this age, that's even better. And you're welcome to write some of these characteristics and favorites down so you don't forget.
Once you have that all set and you're ready to dive into the practice, find a quiet moment when you can be with yourself. Settle into a comfortable seat. Take a few breaths into your belly to ground, sighing out the breath with each exhale. As you're breathing, feeling the way your body is making contact with the seat it's resting on noticing where there might be tension, or apprehension coming up as you are doing this practice and seeing if you can soften around it. Seeing if you can stay present to the space that you are creating and holding for yourself.
Whenever you're ready, you can let that intentional breath fall away, and come back to neutral to how you breathe normally, while continuing to stay aware of your breath, staying aware of your body. You can close your eyes if you haven't done so already. And as you do, bring to mind this image of your younger self. The self with so many hopes, and dreams and personality. The self that is playful, creative, imaginative. The self that is curious and tender, who deserves to feel loved and safe and supported. As you're continuing to think about this little one, while you're still gently aware of your breath, begin to get curious about if this younger version of yourself lived in your body, where would they live? What do you notice about that area or areas of your body? Any sensations, emotions, or memories that communicate to you that your younger self lives here. Really use your body to explore these questions. Noticing where you might feel buzzing, or electricity or heaviness in your body where there might be an impulse to laugh, or cry or sigh. Taking those sensations, or even an absence of sensation, even numbness as cues of aliveness, as cues that there's something here that wants to be explored. And if nothing's coming up for you, that's okay. You can just sit and hold the image of your younger self with you as you move through this practice.
Now, if you are able to locate a part of the body where your little self resides, I invite you to place your hands there. And if you had trouble locating, you can put your hands over your heart or your belly, whatever feels good to you. Now with your hands on your body, I invite you to say something to your younger self, that they really needed to hear back then, when it came to their body, their sexuality, their gender expression. Something supportive they wish they had heard a trusted, safe adult say when they were in the midst of questioning and learning and becoming. This can be a few words or an entire conversation, whatever your little one wants to hear. And if you're using this episode to guide you in real-time, feel free to pause this now so that you can talk however much you need and then come back when you're ready. Allowing any emotions to come up and flow. Continuing to stay with your breath to sigh or hum if you need to. You can give some soothing touch to your body here. Holding, massaging, maybe even shaking out that area of the body.
You're welcome to stay here as long as you'd like and when you feel complete, I invite you to end this practice with a protective word to your younger self. Something you say out loud that lets them know you've got their back, that they're not alone, that they're allowed to be curious and to feel and explore that they are good and who they are is okay. Who they are, is enough.
As we close out this practice, I invite you to come back to that intentional breath. So, taking a deep breath into your belly, inflating it like a balloon, expanding it to its fullness, and exhale out of the mouth with a sigh, softening the belly, letting it all go. You can open the eyes now. And write down or record anything that came up during this practice. Anything you want to remember, anything that felt important that you hold on to. And a little homework for you: give the areas of your body that you felt your younger self in a lot of love this week. Massage those areas if you can. Maybe draw a little doodle on yourself, like maybe your younger self would. Really using touch to remember this connection you have to this part of you. And to also use touch to listen to your younger self, if ever they tried to speak up. And I imagine that this isn't the first time you've come into contact with them.
I also want you to make a commitment to honoring your word with your little one. Doing whatever you can to take care of them, consider them and protect them as you move through the world. And the last thing I'll add, if you're looking for a little extra, consider making a tiny altar to your baby self. Put some photos of your younger self on it. Maybe some little treats or sweets that they loved back in the day. And maybe write down those protective words or just words of love and encouragement and nestle them somewhere on the altar as well. I offer that only if it resonates. I used to have an altar to my younger self in my office and it was a really lovely gesture to her. You know letting her know that I haven't forgotten about her. That I'm continuing to honor and protect her and advocate for her agency and sexual liberation.
If you did any parts of this practice today, I would love to hear how it was for you. You can send me an email at evyan@evyanqhitney.com I will put that also in the show notes and tell me what came up. I'd also love to know what's on your altar if you end up making one.
Okay, y'all be easy. Take care. Big Love.
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Sensual Self is created and hosted by me, Ev’Yan Whitney. It is edited by myself and Tribble. Music is by Melodiesinfonie from his song called ‘Just Healing.’
For show notes, transcripts, and resources for your sensuality, go to evyanwhitney.com/podcast. You can also follow the show on Instagram @sensual.self.
As for me, I’m on Instagram at @evyan.whitney, and you can check out evyanwhitney.com to find out more about me and my work.
Also check out my book Sensual Self: Prompts and Practices For Getting in Touch With Your Body. You can find that wherever you find books.
Thanks so much for being here and I’ll see you in the next one.