Episode 66: How to Be a Sensual Man (with Maceo Paisley)
Sensuality is not just for women and femmes. Men and masc folks are sensual too. In this one, Ev'Yan speaks with artist, writer, and dancer Maceo Paisley about the many things that keep men from accessing and embracing their sensual selves. They also talk about using dance as a way to connect to the body; how Maceo defines sensuality for himself; the pain and pleasure binary; and how to encourage your partner/loved one to access his sensual softness.
The full transcript of this episode is below.
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maceo paisley is a multi-disciplinary artist, designer, and cultural producer who explores themes in society and identity through movement, language, and imagery. after serving the in the u.s. army and climbing the ladders of corporate America, maceo "paisley" keeling III made his way into the world of arts, entertainment, and entrepreneurship. For the past decade Maceo has danced professionally, performed on national stages as a dancer, spoken word and performance artist.
Find more about his work on his website, see the way he moves on Instagram, and join his Patreon to access more of his offerings.
Transcription:
Hey, welcome to Sensual Self. I'm Ev'Yan Whitney and this is a space for you to slow down, tune in, heal and feel the sensations and pleasures of your sensual body. Thank you for being here.
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A few episodes ago, I mentioned that I was really interested in exploring men's sensuality, like what it looks like for men and masculine of center folks to be soft, and sensual. I'm curious about this because I noticed that in all the workshops I've taught and all of the conversations I've had about sensuality, it's assumed that this is for “womenfolk” only. Those who dwell more on the feminine side of the energy spectrum are allowed to access the softness and pleasure in their own bodies and everyone else has to be hard, rigid, or sturdy.
This is something I've explored a couple of times on this podcast more recently with my partner, Jonathan in episode 60. And way, way, way back in the day when this space was called something else, on episode 23, which was more about men's sexuality than sensuality, but you know, it overlaps. I think what's so fascinating to me about this is how patriarchy harms us all, even the men who created and are prospering within it. And because my work is about sensuality and sex and being in our bodies, I'm always wondering how patriarchy has affected and oppressed the way that men and masc folks express themselves within those realms.
So today's episode, we're going to dive deep into all of that, and bring with us the third cis man to ever grace this podcast, and also someone I really, really respect and admire, Maceo Paisley. I first came across Maceo's voice and energy in Clubhouse chats, back when Clubhouse was the place to be. And I remember being really struck by the depths that he'd go about philosophy and spirituality and art and embodiment. He actually hosted me and Dr. Thema of the Homecoming podcast in a conversation on Clubhouse about the power of dance. This was when I was teaching sensual dance meditation classes regularly. And I loved how he offered his own wisdom and perspective in that space on how moving the body has been medicine for him. So naturally, I have to have him on Sensual Self.
Maceo is a multidisciplinary artist, designer, and cultural producer who explores themes and society and identity through movement, language, and imagery. He is a writer, dancer, and, something that I perceive about him, an impeccable spaceholder. So it's not at all surprising to me that the conversation we had about sensuality and bodies and pleasure was so rich, so so rich.
In this conversation, we talked about the inherent homophobia that prevents men from accessing their sensual softness. We talked about the binary and how the cultural scripts we've been given about our assigned genders keeps us from being open to the ways we are allowed to express ourselves. We talked as well about the subtle and often disregarded nuances of sensation that Maceo experiences that reminds him that he's alive. And another cool part of this conversation: Maceo helped me think about something, a particular act per se, that I despise with all of my being, and he helped me look at it in a new way through this lens of aliveness and sensuality. And, you know, while I can't say that I've been converted. I admit that this activity is not as much of a fuck no as it once was. And to find out what that is, you'll have to keep listening.
Which is exactly what I'm going to leave you to do until the end when I come back with a practice to help you tap into your sensuality this week.
Alright, enjoy!
. . .
Maceo, thank you so much for having this conversation with me today. It's so good to see your face. We've been communicating only through Clubhouse really, so now we can see each other.
Maceo Paisley
Yeah, I'm down for whatever. I think that, um, the audio world is great. And the audio-video world is great. And then, you know, one day we'll bump into each other in Highland Park or something and like, hang out.
Ev'Yan Whitney
I hope so. Wait, are you in LA?
Maceo Paisley
I'm in Detroit.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Okay. Okay.
Maceo Paisley
But I'm from LA and I, I'm back there often.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes. Tell me the next time you're coming through to LA, I would love to see you in person. COVID willing, you know what I mean?
Maceo Paisley
Absolutely.
Ev'Yan Whitney
So there's so many reasons why I wanted you to be on my podcast. But I've been really, really thinking about, you know, sensuality is a big part of the work that I do. It's something that I think about, it's something that I practice, and it's something that I help folks engage in on their own time. And anytime I hear the word sensual, and particularly in the past, it's been very much like sensuality is designated for the womenfolk or the femme folk.
Maceo Paisley
Yeah.
Ev'Yan Whitney
And I've been wanting to like interrogate that as to why because I feel that sensuality is something that we all experience. If we have a body, we are sensual beings. And the reason why I wanted to bring you on is because—I hope you don't mind me saying this—but I feel that you are the embodiment of sensuality, in like, the masculine form. It's been really beautiful to watch the way that you move and the way that you were able to hold space for folks, as well as the softness that I feel that you invite other people around you to engage in. And so I don't know if sensuality is a part of your lexicon, I don't know if you have thought of yourself as a sensual person, or if you think about sensuality at all, but I just—yeah, I was really curious to pick your brain, so to speak, about sensuality and masculinity and men and things like that.
Maceo Paisley
Yeah. I think that this is a complex topic because I think some of the old culprits that we hear about a lot, patriarchy, toxic masculinity, heteronormativity- all that stuff is like, I'm not through that hallway. You know, I mean, it's like, I'm still dealing with that. So when, when you say those things, I'm on one side, I'm like, I'm progressive. I'm, I'm flattered. You know, like, there is a, I'm woke, and I'm in touch with my body. I'm the modern man, right. And then on the other side, like, I'm like, it kind of sounds like you're saying I'm, like, soft or something. And like, it feels like a negative thing. It feels like you're telling me, it's like seventh grade Maceo is being put in the friendzone. And that is not. That is not a good feeling, right? Because men, my programming says, even against my own, like knowledge, that men are supposed to be dangerous,
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes
Maceo Paisley
-that we are supposed to be hunters and providers and conquerors. And if you are safe around me, if you feel safe around me, and you're not my romantic partner, then I'm doing something wrong. And that is really interesting to like, feel into just like, oh, you know, there's a person that I perceive as attractive who's saying that I'm, they're not reading me in this dangerous way. And that's so that's, that's like, just straight up the feeling. But, but I'm the way I use my body is to process the feelings and interrogate the source of the feeling and say, well, where's that feeling coming from? Where did I learn the association with that phrase, and where did it and then why is this feeling coming up?
Ev'Yan Whitney
That's interesting that that came up for you. As I was saying that like right in this moment, and I wonder, I wonder, like, if you don't mind like unpacking that a little bit, like where does that come from? Or where do you think this the root of that feeling was coming from?
Maceo Paisley
You know, I think that I am a human being and I have insecurities. But the sight of my insecurities are really complex. And so I wear it as a sight of strength. And at the same time, it's a, it's a vulnerability because of a lot of the messages I've received over time about what kinds of male performance are valued in the world, by other men, by women in business, and the ecosystem of romantic almost like exchange, and who I've recognized growing up, gets access to what I've been conditioned to see as valuable pretty girls or whatever, right, sexual attention. And, and so I have to continue to remind myself like, oh, those might not be the natural associations that I have. Those might be ideas I inherited. And so the question is, like, doesn't actually matter where the ideas have come from? It's one of the ideas that I want to hold. And then what is this response that I like to have when someone gives me a compliment?
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah
Maceo Paisley
You know? And the response that I like to have is not even, oh, I'm a modern man. I'm like, woke. That's not that's just one version of it. I think the response that I like to have, if I'm authoring my own narrative, is, thank you, you're seeing something of me that I have actually worked quite hard to cultivate, and actively put on display so that people remember, particularly, that a black man has the right, and is beautiful when he is soft in public. Like, period.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah
Maceo Paisley
You know? And so, so I receive it that way, in spite of my leg sort of visual, visceral pushback.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, that's interesting. The visceral pushback is something that I feel so often when thinking about, you know, the person that I want to be this, like, push-pull of like, who I want to be, and also like, all the stories and narratives that are trying to suck me away from that. That's something that I'm trying to move through in my own practice in my own space of coming home to myself, and I just really appreciated you like expressing that and making a space for that here.
Maceo Paisley
Right. You're welcome. Thank you.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah. So tell me, what do you think about when you think about sensuality? Like is, like, what does that word mean to you? In general?
Maceo Paisley
So this is what I love about this conversation is that I think that the world has somehow been convinced that sense-making is a thing that happens in one part of your body, your brain? And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, that what happened just now in our exchange, was I received information from my body that helped me understand not only what you were saying, but what I was feeling what is my relationship to that idea you conveyed. And so to me, sensuality is simply the information that is received. And that is flowing through my body all the time. I have access to information at my fingertips, I have activity, I have access to information in my gut, I have access to information in my lungs, right? So for me, sensuality is, Hey, why did my spine do that? Oh, that's, that's some, that's my body talking to me. That's my body in conversation with itself. That's information being passed from one site to another site. And as I develop literacy in my body, I develop agency in my body and in my being, and that's when we really cooking with grease, because then I can start to say, Oh, I don't like this feeling. And then because I've learned movement. And because I've learned how to shift focus, I can actually do the imaginative work of how would I like to feel and then work my way to that feeling. So to me, sensuality is the sort of system of information that's happening in my body, and for those that can't, you know, see me I'm like, you know, doing some shoulder stuff.
Ev'Yan Whitney
I know you're making, you're making me do some movements too. I love that—sensuality is information that moves through your body. I love that. I've asked this question to a few folks in this podcast and also just in my regular life, and I'm always so curious and fascinated by people's answers, like how they come to understand and also express their sensuality, you know, because there's a lot of narratives that we have of sensuality. I know for me, you know, sensuality has sort of been designated to over-sexualized image of, you know, performing sexiness. Yeah, like I one, one thing that I love to tell people is like, go on Google, go on Google images and just search the word sensual, or sensuality. And that'll tell you everything that you need to know about what our culture thinks sensuality is, it's going to be sexualized, it's going to be white, thin, lacey bras sucking on a lollipop. And so like, I'm always so fascinated and excited when I have conversations with folks like you, who have a broader and more expansive understanding of what sensuality is beyond this very, like, flattened definition that I think we've all been given.
Maceo Paisley
What I like about the definition I give is it accomplishes one thing, and that is, pulls back the idea that emotions and bodies are irrational, it retrieves that. So we're not crazy for feeling a certain way. And it heightens at the same time heightens the subjective experience to the realm of the domain of testimony. And that testimony is so much more than opinion, it's like your perspective on the experience that you're having, right at that time, or that you've had. And then the second thing that it does, is it allows me to incorporate things that are archetypically thought of as masculine. So like, instinct, you know, and so, I, of course, I'm sensual, I have instincts, and I can, I can smell the bushes and trees, and it's like, that's all information that however you want to look at it. Whether it's the smell of smoke when something's burning or that attraction of pheromones between somebody that I'm like catching the vibe. And those instincts, I think, when we talk about interpersonal relationships, I think are really, really, really, really important. Because the more detached I get from my body, then I'm just calculating, as opposed to feeling into what the dynamic is. And that's such situational awareness of an environment. I think it's all somatic. And I think it's all vestibular and proprioceptive. So that just those are just a bunch of words that just mean that your body is talking.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, yeah. You mentioned a bit ago that like, this is something that you've worked really hard to cultivate within yourself. And I'd love to know, like, what did that cultivation process look like for you?
Maceo Paisley
Oh, man, okay. So, I have a great story. And I'm sure that this is one checkpoint in a lifetime of work. But you know, I've been an athlete my whole life and did martial arts my whole life. But I was in a performing group, like as a professional dancer, and the choreographer of the troupe of the like show choir was like, "Hey, you're never going to be the dancer you say you want to be if you don't learn to engage your glutes and your hips." She said to me, Miss Tanya Gibson Clark, God rest her soul, said to me, "You're so concerned about people thinking you're gay, you're never going to be a good dancer." And I was like, "Oh. My. God. Like, how dare you?"
Ev'Yan Whitney
Wow.
Maceo Paisley
And then I was like, Okay, well, let me just figure out what's going on here. And the funny thing about this, Elvis, Michael Jackson, Prince, Little Richard, you know what I mean? Usher, Genuwine. Like moving forward, you know, men who engage their hips in movement, publicly, are dangerous. Like all the way up to Harry Styles, it's dangerous, because it pushes up against what we're originally like, technically shown, where men carry energy.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Right.
Maceo Paisley
They carry it in their feet firmly planted on the ground, and their shoulders. Right. But you can't even kick somebody Bruce Lee right without engaging your hips. Who was also a dancer.
Ev'Yan Whitney
I didn't know he was a dancer. That makes sense. That makes sense.
Maceo Paisley
He was a great dancer, incredible dancer. Yeah.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Do you see he's over my shoulder right now? I'm in my husband's office.
Maceo Paisley
Yeah. But yeah, but that's like part of the reason that I brought it up but—so that aspect of when we talk About work is asking questions of like, well, if I engage my hips, and my glutes, and I learned to feel pain and or pleasure in that area, well, then I'm at risk of becoming homosexual. And then my masculinity is then under attack, if I'm at risk of becoming homosexual, so it's better to just ignore that entire part of my body to like, maintain the archetype of, you know, big, strong, tough, right. But in the challenge of wanting to become a better artist, and a better mover, I had to confront the areas in my body that I was ignoring, and that I was cornering off and open them up to say, Well, I'm actually trying to be something more or live into a version of myself that isn't framed by someone else's idea of what a man looks like.
Ev'Yan Whitney
I imagine that. And you can tell me if this is true, I imagine that not only did you have to do the work somatically, like with your body in that way, like you mentioned, opening up those parts of your body. But I wonder if you also had to dismantle heal internalized homophobia within yourself around that.
Maceo Paisley
I mean, if you can tell me where you've seen a visibly or sort of whatever you would call it, like, straight guy twerking. And, or, or doing vogue or right, like, those are not, those are not the archetypes of masculinity that are lifted to the top of the pile.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Right.
Maceo Paisley
And so when I think about what it is to be a man, which that's the gender identity that feels right to me. I was like, oh, you know what, it's not that I, I went to the extreme of saying, well, maybe manhood isn't my thing. And I was like, you know, I don't know, if I'm gonna be like The Rock, I love The Rock. That's so cool. He's great. But maybe that's just, I'll never live up to that, and I can't, so maybe I should opt-out. And then I thought of myself more as a designer, and what gender could be for me. And I said, Well, I don't actually have to opt-out of manhood, I just need to author it in my own way. Keep what serves me and let go of what doesn't. And then I get to as a result of that, from like a more activistic standpoint, expand the definition of manhood, herald different characteristics for all the folks next to me, besides me, in front of me behind me, that say that like this is just too narrow of a thing. And then we can open it, open it, open it, open it, open it up, and then you know, that is where a lot of that healing and dismantling in an embodied sense had to happen, but also in the cognitive sense of like, oh, you know, if this feels good, and I, and I deny myself, the pleasure of that feeling, you know, in my hips or whatever, then like, what am I saying about the experience of humanity that I want to have being human that I want to have? And I'd rather have a full experience of being human and like, sacrifice some archetypal masculinity role than compromise my humanity to try and live up to a made-up ideal that I didn't even create.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Right, right. And it sounds like you didn't even like sign up for you know, like, a lot of us are given these cultural scripts of what is feminine, what is masculine, and we are operating within those scripts without even saying like, wait, did I choose this or was this bestowed upon me so yeah, yeah. In what ways do you feel that you express your sensuality? I don't even know if sensuality is a word that like, resonates with you necessarily but I'm just curious about like, what that expression for you looks like on a day-to-day basis.
Maceo Paisley
Yeah, no, I do identify with the word or that word resonates, sensuality. I think that, um, what's implicit in the use of that word, when you were talking about the feminization of it is the more delicate and subtleties of the sensual experience, as opposed to the more overt and abrasive. So I think about it this way- when I'm making soup, and I'm cooking, I'm seasoning to taste. And that means that I gotta make sure that I don't overseason. And I have to take on a completely like sort of different- You know, I'm pinching salt and it's like the smaller, more sort of delicate things. But what that brings to mind is a particular like, kind of, of, of, like sleight of hand. And I think that's what's the connotative meaning in sensuality. But I also think that sensuality is a cold shower or an ice bath.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah.
Maceo Paisley
It's the full spectrum of sensation. So it's not just what we owe the feather on the back of the spine, like it's that, sure.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Sure, yeah.
Maceo Paisley
But it's also that rush of heat when you open the door in the middle of summer. And for me, when you say the word sensual, or what I think of when I feel like most sensual in my life, is the sun on my face in winter, when it's cold outside, but the sun is warm on my face. And like the nuance of that feeling where I'm like bundled up with gloves or whatever, but the sun is just like shining warm on my face. So to me, it's like a richness, and like a vocabulary for feeling.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Mm hmm. I'm loving how you're describing this because I think a lot of times folks think that sensuality is like what you said feathers on the spine and tickles on your neck and things like that, like eating a delicate piece of chocolate or something, which, yes, that's true. But I also feel very much like you that sensuality is on a spectrum and that at the core of it, sensuality is about feeling sensations in the body. And those sensations can be soft and delicate, like eating a delicate piece of chocolate. Or they could be like, taking a fucking ice bath, which is not something that I do. And I will never do. My partner does it all the time. And I'm like, You are a madman. And I'm not into I hate being cold. But I get why there's an appeal to that. Because it's like, I imagine that it feels like oh my god, I'm fucking alive. You know?
Maceo Paisley
Yes, that's it. That's it. It's- Oh, my God, I'm fucking alive.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, yeah.
Maceo Paisley
And sometimes you dial it down so that you have to focus on the subtlety. Right? Like if it's just a cool breath along your skin, the noise of the world is not every day, ordinarily letting you feel that.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Right.
Maceo Paisley
And so there is something to slowing down, breathing, and that particular kind of meditative focus, tantric, what have you, the subtlety of sensation and sensuality. But there is also- there is something important about I think, being in touch with the extent to which I can feel. You know, and I think it's just, I think that also anger is a is an important part of sensuality.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes. I'm so glad you're bringing that up. Yeah.
Maceo Paisley
Yeah, go ahead.
Ev'Yan Whitney
I was just, I was just gonna, I've been thinking a lot about this, about how like sensuality is sort of put in this box of like, pleasurable feelings, you know, like eating chocolate and putting, like having this on your face and wearing something that's really soft on your skin. And something that I've been embodying and thinking about a lot in my own practice is that like, sensuality is not just the quote unquote, good, or the pleasurable, it's also the challenging, it's also like being able to sit with your body, when it's hard to be in your body to sit with your emotions, when it's hard to like, reckon with those emotions. And I'm so glad that you mentioned anger because I think a lot of times we think about softness and things like that, and how maybe that doesn't have a space, like anger doesn't have a space in these conversations around sensuality and softness, but I feel like you have to process the anger in order to get to the sensuality and softness.
Maceo Paisley
Yeah, I mean, so one thing that I did for a number of years, like two or three years, I used to hold these open sessions where I would bring people into an emotional experience game. And we would, it would, it was called Note to Self and it was emotional networking. So you would have to identify the emotion in your body first, so that you could empathize with another person when they said they felt that emotion. And so if I said I was angry, you don't need to feel what I feel when I say I'm angry. You just need to be able to understand your version of what anger is. And two things came up along the gender binary was that men had more trouble identifying with sadness and women had more trouble identifying with anger.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Not surprised to hear that
Maceo Paisley
But the reported sensations were very, very similar.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Oh, interesting.
Maceo Paisley
Warmth in particular places along the back in the stomach, hands movement, sweating shaking, and, and tightness in the throat different people reported different sensations in different locations. But when you were, when you mapped the reporting of the sensation, outside of the naming of the feeling, you found much more similarity. And so there is actually this thing that, to me, when we talk about the difference between sadness and anger, I think those are much more complicated feelings than we give credit for and when we, when we sort of run away from sensuality, we lose the ability to have an understanding about what's actually going on in our bodies at that time. You know, it's like, I've, I was feeling rejected because I didn't get this job. Okay, well, what's actually happening? Oh, I'm angry, because I should have done more to prepare. And I'm sad, because they didn't see the real me. And so I, I think about the, you know, the oh my god, Fuck, yeah, I'm alive thing as you know, pain reminds me I'm alive, as much as pleasure does. And also pain and pleasure binary is one that we can just work on as well.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, let's talk about that, ah, the pain and pleasure binary, like, what? -because that's something that I've been trying to unpack. And just like, I don't know if decolonize is the right word, but I'm trying to bring more nonbinariness into my life generally, right, not just with my gender, but also with the way that I feel in my body with the way that I feel with my own emotions. I'm very black or white, typically. I'm either this or that there is no in-between. So the idea of sort of smashing this pain and pleasure binary is really interesting to me. And I would love to hear anything that you have to say about that.
Maceo Paisley
So one example is the one you gave with your partner in the ice bath, it probably doesn't feel great. Or maybe it actually does feel great in an uncomfortable way. Because what you get is a reminder that you're alive, you know. But also spicy food, you know, you see somebody eating some really spicy food, it's delicious. And yet they have to like, take a break. Because it's so hot. Right? It's uncomfortable.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah.
Maceo Paisley
And so, I think there are moments and places and spaces where comfort isn't always chalked up to be, we need richer experiences than that. And the pain and pleasure aspect of, you know, on a very small scale, like someone biting your lip a little bit when you're kissing, like some people really, really enjoy that. And there was those—the high low, it's it's really, to me richness and complexity that we crave more than just positive, positive, positive, positive, positive. One note. And so to me, when I think about that aspect, it is, again, orienting myself around my current sensation, and then curating, authoring, what would I like to be feeling?
Ev'Yan Whitney
I feel like you're telling me I should take more ice baths.
Maceo Paisley
I kind of am.
Ev'Yan Whitney
No, oh my god. No, but you're right, though. Because something that I say a lot to myself. Is that like, I want to be more comfortable with being uncomfortable. And I think about this with other things like emotions, you know, like feeling into the heart emotions or allowing my emotions to come through that I don't like or that I've been acculturated to feel that it's not something that I should like, but the idea of an ice bath. Wow, I'm-
Maceo Paisley
So check it out. What I would do is I would just take increasingly colder showers.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Oh my god, I'm having like, actual feelings in my body.
Maceo Paisley
This is what I do. Because I don't I don't like I'm like you. I don't like ice baths. Yeah, I understand it. Like when I go to the sauna. I'm only in the hot pool. Go into the ice pool.
Ev'Yan Whitney
I'm a lizard. Like I could be out in the sun, lay with the sun on my body, burning. Okay, so we're the same. I thought I thought maybe you were like a polar bear or something. You know, but we're two lizards.
Maceo Paisley
I got Yeah, yeah, no. So what I do is I just, I go from really hot. And then I just take it down to room temperature. And room temperature feels cold after a really hot that's true. And then and then after I've, you know, you feel the shiver and you've adjusted to room temperature. I just add a little bit more cold. That's it. So it's just a little bit less than room temperature. So it's cool water, not cold, just cool water. And then, and then if you want to go bold, you can try to do a little bit of cold and then turn the heat back up, because you've like, worked your way down.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Okay. It's like training wheels, you know, training wheels.
Maceo Paisley
Yeah. Now, I'm saying this, as I'm telling you, that this is what I need to do.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Man, I don't know, I don't know if I can promise you that. I'm going to try this. But I'm listening. I'm receiving it. And we're gonna see-
Maceo Paisley
Use the information, use your body, right? This is sensual processing. So embodied cognition is all about sensuality. You know, this thing—when people say trust your gut, you know, trust your do what your heart says, that sensuality. Embodied cognition is the same thing that tells you whether you like the taste of something or not, can tell you things about, Well, should I marry this person? Should I buy this house? Should I take this job?
Ev'Yan Whitney
Listen, see, this is the reason why I talk about sensuality all the time, because I'm like, y'all, if you are tapped into your sensuality, it's not just about your five senses. It's about what you're speaking to like, your intuitions, you know, your inner knower.
Maceo Paisley
Yeah, I mean, I think that the body clearly has ancient wisdom, timeless wisdom, because it's taken, you know, I don't know, however many billions of years to cultivate this really, really, really complex system of, you know, nerves and cells, and how are you going to, with your little like, blink, blink blink of an eye as humanity, like our whole species, and then a blink, blink, blink blink of an eye. Even if you're like 90 years old, that's a tiny sliver of the amount of information that your body is processing all the time. You know, we're still trying to figure out how to program computers to do the stuff that cells do all day long. And you know, it. It's just like, honor that wisdom, respect that wisdom, and try to get my whole practice isn't about this, like political- It's not really about like a political stance on like, patriarchy or masculinity. Not really, it's actually more of a personal development thing. And we're like, what can I do to cultivate? Like, if patriarchy is going to be the thing that keeps me from teleporting then like, peace the fuck out. You know what I mean? Like, I want to do all the cool shit. You know what I mean? Yeah, I want telepathy and teleportation and like human unassisted flight. And like all that, like, I want to solve a Rubik's cube with my eyes closed upside down, like, levitate. Like, all that stuff. And I don't have I don't really have any interest in like, holding on to the burden of inherited social beliefs, even if they're like, really cool on Instagram. You know what I mean? Like, I have to, like—if you see me walking, and you're like, Oh, that guy doesn't even have a car. And I'm like, well, your dependency on automobile transport is actually not something I aspire to. And the fact that I can like teleport is actually like a high key flex. I want photosynthesis, you know, anything, I want to be able to just like, look up at the sun, no solar panels needed and just get direct energy from, like radiation. I want to do all that crazy, X-Men stuff. And I think that the limitation to that is, you know, the belief that I have to play this other role.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah.
Maceo Paisley
Like, I'm going for like blue skin and a tail. You know what I mean? I want I'm going deep. I mean, just like to be able to be in conscious awareness of every cell in your body as a goal.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah.
Maceo Paisley
Like we sit in yoga or meditation, and we do these body scans. And we're like, this is where the binary thinking comes from. Because we can't hold attention, you know, at the top of our crown chakra, and in the bottom of our root chakra all at the same time. If we could do that we'd be soaring. Yeah, you know, and so I'm like, scan your toes and then move up to your ankles and then move up to you're like, No, I want to scan everything and be engaged with everything. And like, be in flow as often as much as I can. Because when I'm in flow, that's the other part of sensuality. Like I I know that this conversation is going well, because of the way my body feels.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, I love this idea of like using your body as a compass toward not just like, pleasure, I guess. But just like what is nourishing?
Maceo Paisley
Yeah.
Ev'Yan Whitney
You know? I love that.
Maceo Paisley
You hit it on the head when you said nourishing, nourishing, nourishing, nourishing. When you're thirsty, and you drink some water, it's just like, oh, that's the feeling. When you're hungry, and you take that first bite of food, it's nourished me. And so I want to move in ways that propel me towards nourishment, like 2023, 2024 and the beginning of 2025. It's going to be like, nourishment. That's the word that's coming down.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes, yes. Okay, tell me some of the practices that nourish you.
Maceo Paisley
So one of the things I was telling my friend, is, I like silliness. And I like play. Um, and so one of the things that I do, when I'm brushing my teeth, I like take it back to childhood. And my, my mom and dad used to remind me to brush the back of my teeth. And the way that they did that, they were like, you know, "Go aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh" -- And I'll do that. And like, that's just a silly way of reminding me not to take myself too seriously. It reminds me to like, brush my whole mouth. And it's just fun. And that in the morning, especially that joviality and that silliness on a Monday, when I don't want to do whatever I got to do or Tuesday, whatever day. Um, that's really helpful and nourishing. I got to Theragun-- No, what I'll call it if you don't want to endorse a particular brand, I got a high impulse massager. And I turned that baby up, like as far as I can take it, and I'll just hit like, the ball of my foot, or, you know, my like, hip muscle or my shoulder. And just like that, or you know, you know, standing on a tennis ball or hitting the foam roller, like those kinds of things are like, they ride that pain-pleasure threshold very, very highly. And another thing is, you know, I'm, I'm, like always moving. So in the morning, I wake up, and I drink a glass of water, and I do 20 minutes of movement. And that is like hip openers, it's spine activation, it's maybe some planks and push ups handstands, like inversions. And like, also just like bugging, like, just fun. And then I've already given to myself, but I've also checked in so I know, like where I'm at in the day. So when somebody says, How are you doing? I'm like, you know, I think I'm like, a solid 89% as opposed to pretending I'm all good. And thinking I'm 100% and going at 100% pace. And then by the end of the day, I've run myself into the negative 20 to 25%. And then I'm crashing and burning. So those kinds of things are where I start to make that space for nourishment in my life. I mean, I also eat, you know, I like I have my little latte ritual. Today I was, you know, cutting up bananas to put in my little smoothies for the week in my little container. That stuff's like, basic things. Night water, just having water next to the bed is just easy.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah.
Maceo Paisley
Just those little things. And designing it in such a way that it just becomes easier and easier and easier. Like I bought a bookshelf because something in the back of my head, I was like, I like my apartment, but something's not right. It's just like books everywhere. And then I got a bookshelf and I like felt a small part of my like, through design, through like feng shui and interior design, like thinking through like, Oh, if I move my couch, one foot to the left, that just opens up a bunch of white space on my wall from where the shadow of my lamp is, can just hit the wall without overlapping on the other shadow of the other lamp and just something in my brain doesn't like my shadows overlapping. And so I'm like,
Ev'Yan Whitney
Okay.
Maceo Paisley
I'm like, that's weird. But I made the adjustment and something in my like, again, like vestibular system or my proprioception makes me feel more at home because I think subconsciously, I don't have to keep checking on like, oh is there predator? Is there a ghost? Is there someone in my apartment? No, there isn't. Because there's an object, there's a shadow, then there's space and there's light. And then there's another object. So there aren't any like dark, hidden corners where like inner child Maceo has to wonder if there's a boogeyman. I just worked that out loud. But I just think that might be like an example of why that is.
Ev'Yan Whitney
I love that. I think that's really, really interesting. And I love the things that you listed as things that nourish you. How movement is such a big part of nourishment for you. I know, it's something that I could do so much more of in my life. And yeah, thank you for sharing all of that I, I could talk to you literally forever. I'm looking at the time and realizing that we need to, we need to go soon. But before I do, I want to ask a question that I get a lot. And I guess in some ways, I'm going to ask you to be the token man. To answer this question I get from—
Maceo Paisley
Here we go.
Ev'Yan Whitney
—that I get from women, femmes, nonbinary folk who are like, okay, so I'm in my sensual self, I am feeling my sensuality. But my boyfriend is really struggling with that, or my husband is having a really hard time coming into his own softness, or my partner feels like, you know, they are interested in sensuality, but they feel held back by it, because of all the things that you mentioned before, right?
Maceo Paisley
Yeah.
Ev'Yan Whitney
So like, what can we do, to sort of nurture and encourage the men masculine of center, nonbinary folks in their lives, to find their sensual selves and to soften? Like, I know that this is a process that is personal and not something that you can force someone into. But I also know that like, it can be helpful if you have people that are in your life that are showing you- I don't know what's possible.
Maceo Paisley
Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's a really important question. I'll be the token man. I don't, I don't mind. But I won't, I don't actually have to speak from a quote, male perspective all that much. I'm going to speak from a Pavlovian psychological perspective. And it's really just, I had an incentive to become more sensual, because I had a higher goal in my life than maintaining the archetypal masculine picture. I wanted to be a dancer, capital D, great as I could be. And so I had to let go of the archetypal masculine picture to some degree, in order to move towards being my ideal version of a dancer. And if those two things were in competition, I was going to choose dancer every time. And so take that example over and what is the incentive? Because actually, in the world, we're not shown what the incentives are. What do you gain by becoming more sensual? Right, you know, do we have sharpened instincts? Do we have better decision-making? So on some instances, I think it actually helps me to live up to the more the archetypal picture of masculinity because I'm way more decisive. Right, I'm like, way more sharp and clear. So you could go that route. But the real thing is, understand that it's difficult and like a little baby, celebrate, when they try, celebrate, when they fall, celebrate the attempt. And then when you see that, that, that, that leap being attempted and success, then really just go nuts. And continue to encourage, and I think just building that into our language of- with all of us, it's like, I'm proud of you. I understand that, like, where I'm at, in this journey is further than where you are, or we're just in different places in our journey on different things. And I'm proud of you for trying, I'm proud of you for accomplishing, I'm proud of you for thinking about being interested in maybe attempting to try to think about a little bit of your sensuality. Right?
So just that encouragement. And I think just is is is one way that you know you could assuage I think even for me that Okay, once I become more sensual- I mean, I started wearing crop tops and you know, lipstick and shit. And then there was a whole world of women who were like, peace out, bro, you're not getting any access to us. Then there was a whole other world of women who were like, I don't know what exactly what's happening in my body, but I know it's a good feeling. And I'm like, oh, Cool. So like three or four women affirmed, and say like, "yeah, you in the crop top, it's a vibe." And I was like, Cool, well, then I don't need those other people who don't think it's a vibe, because I have a community of people who think it's a vibe. So like, that's what I'm rocking with. So if you can encourage and let them know that, like, it's, it's a vibe, it's what you want in the relationship, and it's super fun to try, then I think that is a great, great, great starting point. That's like my thing.
Ev'Yan Whitney
I love that. I love rooting into the intention or the incentive. I think that that is something that is often missed. It's like, okay, but why though? Like, why do you want me to be soft? What do I gain? What do I get? And I mean, it's not necessarily about what you gain or what you get. But I think that that is an important thing to think about. You know, like, what, what gets opened up? What, what parts of you get to expand into the doors that you're opening around softness and sensuality? That's like a really great thing to think about, you know?
Maceo Paisley
Yeah.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Thank you so much, Maceo for shooting the shit with me and talking a little bit about sensuality today. I'm like, always in awe of the depths of, of your mind and your own process. So I just really, I'm so appreciative of the time that you took with me today.
Maceo Paisley
Hey, anytime, it was great. I appreciate the invitation and opportunity. And like, it's a real honor to even just be invited. I'm always like, what? Oh, my God, you know, sounds great. So thank you so much.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah. So before I go, I don't know if you have anything you want to plug. But if folks want to find you, they want to follow the work that you do for you in any way. Like where can people do that?
Maceo Paisley
So you can find me on Patreon @MaceoPaisley, you know, patreon.com. And I'm doing this thing called The Friend Show. And it's all about imaginal imagination, emotional intelligence, and design. And it's like a puppet show, Mr. Rogers meets like me. And it's super fun. And they're like episodes there. And you can follow me on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, whatever, LinkedIn. And, you know, you get hooked up in my newsletter and all that stuff. I always have something going on. But those are like the easy touchpoints to figure out what might be. You know, you maybe just want to check on my dance videos, which are pretty fire if I do so.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah. I mean, I would say start there. You know, start on Instagram. Look at this homie’s dance videos. Because the way you move, my guy, it's, it's incredible.
Maceo Paisley
If you need credibility for all this stuff that I was saying on this podcast, that's where you would get it. Who is this guy? Why does he got him on here?
Ev'Yan Whitney
Because he moves like water. It's beautiful. It's so beautiful. Well, thank you so much. And I would love for you to come back again to talk about sensual stuff.
Maceo Paisley
Yeah, sounds good. Until then.
. . .
Ev'Yan Whitney
Ah, Maceo is a joy and a delight and I feel a warmth and a fullness in my body after having this conversation. Big thanks to Maceo for coming on and sharing your wisdom. I am inspired. And I hope you are too. I hope that that conversation gave you some things to think about, especially if you identify as a man or a person who is masculine of center, which I don't even know if men listen to this podcast. Is that a thing? I don't know. If I do, please leave a review and shout it out there because I'm so curious if I have any men or masc folks that listen to Sensual Self.
But even if you're not a man, I mean, I feel like this conversation had some lovely little permission slips inside of it, that I hope you take on board and into your own body. Especially that piece around sensuality being the experience of information moving through your body. I really loved that. I loved that so much. So if nothing else, if none of that resonated with you, I hope you'll at least share this with a man folk or a masculine of center person in your life. Because when I tell you they need this medicine, they really really need it.
There were so many gems that Maceo dropped in our chat, and you could honestly choose your own adventure and pick a practice or an intention from our convo to use as inspiration for your sensual practice this week. But for me, something that really stuck with me after my conversation with Maceo was what he was mentioning about the hips. Whether you're a man or woman, no nonbinary individual or a gender, anarchist, we all carry a lot in our hips. We carry information, we carry stories, we carry weight, we carry pain, and shame, and trauma, which, you know, makes a lot of sense, given that our hips are the area that houses our pelvis and our sexual organs. We also carry a lot of wisdom in our hips that we can tap into with gentle inquiry and movement, which is the very basis of this week's practice.
I'd like to see you turn your attention on your hips this week. So bringing conscious awareness to the fact that they exist, you know, look at your hips. Feel how your hips help support and stabilize you throughout the day. Notice how your hips allow you to move in certain ways, or not move in certain ways. Matter of fact, as a little practice, take a moment right now to breathe into your hips. You know, thinking about the breath coming from your hips, and breathing that energy all the way up. And notice what comes up as you try to do that. Are you having trouble with that? Does your breath have trouble dropping into that space? What physical sensations can you sense in your hips? What energy do you notice in this space? And what does that energy feel like? I can tell you that as I do this exercise with you, I feel some heaviness and stagnancy in my hips. And I know that that's partially due to me not moving a lot these days. And also, because of the old shame and trauma that still lives in this space, wherever you are, however, you are approaching this practice, just breathe. Just notice, observe.
So you could just keep your practice there, you know, just breathing into and paying attention to your hips, noticing how you feel when you occupy space with them. Or you can go to the next phase and get a little more curious, a little more deep. Like, what stories am I carrying in my hips? And how have those stories shaped the way I live in my hips? If at all? If I feel shame or pain or tightness here, where do I think that comes from? Like, is there a story or a narrative or a memory that those feelings or sensations are holding on to. Take some time to journal through these questions, you know, hold space for yourself as you tune into this space. Another great question I would have you add to this portion- What kind of relationship do I want to have with my hips? What do I want to feel here? What stories do I want to author in my hips? And you know, maybe it's a bit more softness, maybe it's a bit more power. Maybe you want to shake out some of those old stories with some movement.
Which brings me to the last phase of this practice, should you decide to do all three. Bring some gentle movement to your hips this week, perhaps while you're thinking about all that you tend to hold in this space. So you can do some gentle swaying from side to side, sort of hinging at your hips. You can do some hip circles like you would if you were hula hooping just without the hula hoop. You can do some hip-opening yoga postures. That's a good one. But one of my favorites is shimmying, you can shimmy your hips. So that looks like you alternating bending one knee and then the other to activate this movement. And the faster you bend each knee, the faster the movement and the shaking will be. And while you're moving, really exaggerate these movements, take up space with them. And notice what comes up inside of you as you do that. Notice what sensations or emotions come up for you. Maybe it's some shyness, maybe it's joy. Maybe it's dread, you know? Just notice and see if you can be in your feelings while still being in your body through those movements. If movement isn't available to you, you can practice placing your hands on your hips and give yourself a gentle massage, you know, bringing some motion and attention to that area with your hands, or with an apparatus like a ball, something like that.
While you're doing all of these practices, but especially during the movement, I want you to be breathing deeply. You can breathe in whatever form you'd like. But one of my favorites is inhaling through your nose deep into your low belly, and exhale out of your mouth with a sigh. You can do that as fast or slow as you want to making sure that that breath is in the low belly, maybe even a little lower near your hips. Now, these practices are meant to be gentle, gentle, so try not to bring any judgment or criticality to them. This is about being curious and inviting some aliveness and some feeling into this space that I think we can sometimes ignore. If at any point, you feel any pain or discomfort as you're moving through these practices, or if your emotional body is giving you messages to slow down or take a step back, because it's feeling intense, listen to that. Go with that. And if you do this practice, let me know how it goes. I would love to hear how it treats you.
And also if you want to dive deeper into hips and the pelvis, you should definitely check out episode 28 of this podcast. It is a conversation specifically about the pelvises of people with vaginas. But there's a lot of medicine in that episode that I think anybody with hips could use. So check that out. I think it's called Pelvic Bowls and Yoni Eggs. It's a good one. It's a really good one. All right, y'all. I'm gonna go and get my shimmy on. In the meantime, please take care of yourself this week. Be kind to yourself, and be kind to others. And I'll see you the next one.
. . .
Sensual Self is created and hosted by me, Ev’Yan Whitney. It is edited by myself and Tribble. Music is by Melodiesinfonie from his song called ‘Just Healing.’
For show notes, transcripts, and resources for your sensuality, go to evyanwhitney.com/podcast. You can also follow the show on Instagram @sensual.self.
As for me, I’m on Instagram at @evyan.whitney, and you can check out evyanwhitney.com to find out more about me and my work.
Also check out my book Sensual Self: Prompts and Practices For Getting in Touch With Your Body. You can find that wherever you find books.
Thanks so much for being here and I’ll see you in the next one.