Episode 65: To Be Young, Black, and Asexual (with Yasmin Benoit)
A deeper dive into the ace experience with asexual activist, Yasmin Benoit. In this one, Ev’Yan speaks to Yasmin about her work as an asexual educator and experience as a Black ace person. Yasmin talks about the racism she faces within majority white asexual spaces. She also unpacks what acephobia is and offers advice to those who are nervous about coming out as Ace because of the abuse they’ll face. And a sweet moment during the conversation: Yasmin talks about the joys of being asexual, which is something that is often missing in these conversations about asexuality. Then, Ev’Yan closes us out with a meditation to help us tap into our sensual selves on our own terms.
The full transcript of this episode is below.
LINKS/MENTIONS:
Sherronda Brown - Check out their upcoming book, Refusing Compulsory Sexuality: A Black Asexual Lens on Our Sex-Obsessed Culture
Yasmin Benoit is a British model, award-winning aromantic-asexual activist, and board member of the Asexual Visibility and Education Network (AVEN). After publicly coming out as asexual in 2017, she quickly became a leading voice for the community and has been described by Cosmopolitan as being "the unlikely face of asexuality." She started the #ThisIsWhatAsexualLooksLike movement for asexual visibility and representation and co-founded International Asexuality Day (April 6). Her work has been covered throughout British and international press, including British Vogue, Paper Magazine, Attitude Magazine, British GQ, Cosmopolitan Magazine, and Vogue Greece.
Her website: yasminbenoit.co.uk
Transcription:
Hey, welcome to Sensual Self. I'm Ev'Yan Whitney and this is a space for you to slow down, tune in, heal and feel the sensations and pleasures of your sensual body. Thank you for being here.
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Hey, y'all, I hope you're feeling soft and connected to your body today. If not, I invite you to take a breath, let it out slowly. And who knows? Maybe this conversation will get you a little more connected.
Before we get into today's episode, I want to tell you about a workshop I am teaching this week. This will be a sensual dance meditation practice/full moon ritual that I'm doing with my friend Sarah Faith Gottesdiener. She is the host of the Moonbeaming podcast. And this workshop is based off of a piece that I wrote for Sara's many moons planner for the Full Moon in Libra. In this piece, I talk about the binary and I invite folks to embrace the nuances and complexities that they hold. And I'm so excited. I'm so jazzed to be teaching this class and bringing literal motion to the words that I explored in the piece.
So during this workshop, I'll be inviting you to connect, to release and reclaim the full spectrum of who you are outside of the binary through organic movement. And that's what sensual dance meditation is. It's an organic movement process that helps you to feel into your body, your senses and your emotions. There will be gentle breathwork, there will be journal prompts, q&a, and also some community sharing. I really love teaching workshops where we can share with each other, you know about what's coming up for us in real time as we are engaging in this work. You do not have to be non binary to join. We will be unpacking the binary but not just the binary and gender, the binaries and everything. So come on down, come on through.
This event is happening this Thursday, April 14 at 5:30pm Pacific, or 8:30pm Eastern Time on Zoom, of course. And it's sliding scale. So you'll be able to choose a price point that works for you. A lot of the tickets have been swiped up because we announced this a couple of weeks ago. But there's still a couple more left if you'd like to join us. And even if you think you won't be able to join us live, I still recommend you know purchasing a ticket. And when you do that, you'll be able to get access to the replay, which you can access whenever you're ready. So yeah, if you want to join me for a little workshop, be in space with me and our sensuality. Consider joining the workshop. It's happening this Thursday. So a couple days from now, if you are listening to this episode, the day that it lands, and I hope to see you there, it's going to be a lot of fun.
I'm delighted to share with you this chat I had with British model and asexual activist Yasmin Benoit. Yasmin talks about what it's like for her to be black and Ace, both the good parts of that and also the special kind of racism she receives in the space and how she takes care of herself. She also talks about acephobia and really unpacks for us what that is and what that looks like. And as an aside, please don't be acephobic, it's bad for your health. Actually, on that note, Yasmin gives some really great advice to those of us who might be afraid of coming out as ace because of the acephobia they might experience. And then there's this lovely part in the conversation where Yasmin speaks about the joys of being asexual, which I appreciated so much, because so often the narrative around ace folks feels depressing and sad. Like people harp on what we don't have or what we don't get to experience and that's the only narrative about ace folks. And I was really grateful that we made space in this conversation to celebrate the kind of superpower being a can be and as someone who identifies as ace, I will say it feels like a superpower.
I'm a big fan of the work that Yasmin does, both as an activist, and as a possibility model for other black aces out there. And it was really, really wonderful to speak to her. I'm so excited to share this conversation with you. And if you're new to conversations about the ACE experience, welcome. I'm so happy you're here. The interview you're about to hear is fantastic and very educational. And after you're done, I highly recommend going into the Sensual Self archive, and listening to Episode 56. That is a conversation between me and Angela Chen. Angela Chen is the author of the book Ace and just a generally cool human who is helping to bring more expansion and liberation to what it means to be asexual. So definitely check that episode out. And while you're at it, check out the book Ace. It's amazing. Okay, so I'm going to leave you to enjoy this conversation that I had with Yasmin. And then I'll close this out afterward with a little practice for your sensual self, something that was inspired by something that me and Yasmin talked about today. So BRB, and enjoy our chat.
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Yasmin, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and really excited to chat with you today.
Yasmin Benoit
Yes, thank you for having me. I think this should be fun.
Ev'Yan Whitney
So I have been really looking forward to having this conversation with you. Because ever since I came out as someone that is on the ace spectrum, I've been really curious to have more conversations with ace folks, I feel like having more conversations with each other, helps me at least to feel a lot more affirmed and validated in my experience as an ace person. So first and foremost, I just want to say thank you for the space that you take up and the possibility model that you are for folks like me, black asexual folks in particular, who are looking for, you know, inspiration and just like, affirmation that they are okay as they are. So thank you.
Yasmin Benoit
Oh, thank you so much. That is definitely the community that I hope to reach the most. So it's really great to hear.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes, yeah. So please, before we get started in this juicy conversation, please introduce yourself, or introduce yourself to us, let us know who you are. And also, if you don't mind, tell us how you identify on the spectrum.
Yasmin Benoit
Well, my name is Yasmine. Benoit. I am a British model and aromantic asexual activist. On the spectrum, I tend to just use the term asexual because the most general definition of not experiencing sexual attraction fits me to a tee really. I could get into the micro labels, but I tend not to generally. So yeah, that's usually just how I explain it.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Hmm. And tell me a little bit about what your work as an asexual educator and advocate looks like? Like, what do you do? And also, how did you get into this work?
Yasmin Benoit
Well, I probably do a bit more than people originally assume. I guess the parts that people see the most is the parts on social media, the kind of more influencer-y stuff, the modeling the media interviews and appearances and that kind of thing. But that's actually just one dimension of the work I do. A lot of it tends to be speaking. I speak at a lot of universities in the UK and in the US, and I speak at businesses and I work with a range of charities, whether they're, you know, education-related charities or children's charities or LGBTQIA plus charities and organizations and I'm involved in a lot of behind the scenes work in consultancy and I consult on media projects and I write articles for quite a range of different platforms. Again, I've done things for you know, things aimed at children, things aimed at parents, things for more kind of the more adults sex-positive corners of the internet, and then there's the articles that I write like my #ThisIsWhatAsexualLooksLike series and I do things like I host I've hosted the UK sexuality conference for about three years, I've hosted the international asexuality conference, I co-founded international asexuality day and I do festivals and pride related events and campaigns and all these, all these things. So I feel like there's a lot of areas that asexuality isn't really included in. So I try to spread myself around as much as possible to try and fill out spaces. And then there's also like the academic stuff, I'm a research assistant at California State University for their asexuality research. So there's quite a range of things I like to get into.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Beautiful thank you so much for explaining a little bit about the depth of your work. Like it's it goes so deep, obviously. And I'm just so grateful that there are folks like you who are doing this amount of labor on the ground, because there's so much misinformation about being ace and even as a sex educator myself, like I'm coming to terms with the fact that so much of my work, there was a lot of ignorance that I am waking up to around who is asexual, what asexuality is, even in my own experience as coming to terms with the fact that I am on the ace spectrum. And so I'm so grateful to have stumbled across you and your work. And I also like really want to talk about your ace journey, like how you came to know that you were ace. And like, what, what did that realization mean for you? Because I know that when I realized that I was ace, I mean, it just brought up a whole wellspring of emotion and excitement as well as fear and a little bit of shame. So I'm just curious about how, how you came to realize that you were ace?
Yasmin Benoit
I mean, for me, I think it was, I guess, in comparison to a lot of the stories that I hear. For the work that I do, I think it was it was, it was the actual realization itself was quite simple. It was just kind of what came afterwards, that was complicated, like realizing it within myself was quite simple. And I think I was comparatively young, I guess I always say I realized that I was asexual, when the people around me seemed to realize that they weren't. Because I there's pretty much a phase in your life where everyone's sexuality manifests in a very asexual way. And then usually, during early puberty, it often starts to be directed towards other people, whereas mine was not. And that's when I kind of became more conscious of the fact that what I was experiencing was a little different to my peers. And that really was when I was around like 10, 11 years old, and that it became gradually more obvious when I was a teenager, and I was in secondary school in the way that, you know, my friends were feeling and what they were expressing. And I didn't learn the terminology for asexuality until I was about 15. Because fortunately, I was kind of part of a very well, I say, fortunately, a very Tumblresque generation. This was like peak Tumblr. And while I wasn't on it, a lot of my friends were so knowing a lot about like, sexualities that were kind of like on the outskirts and micro labels, and all those things was very much on their radar. And I was already I just started going to pride when I was 14, so I was kind of already, like, adjacent to it anyway. So it was one of my friends who said, Oh, maybe you're asexual, just because I was constantly trying and failing to articulate my lack of interest. I'd always say, I'm straight, but I don't like guys. And I don't like girls. So I don't know what the word is for it. But that's as good of an explanation as I have.
But then, even after realizing the terminology, and going online and hearing, you know, the testimonies of other asexual people and realizing that they sound is strikingly similar to my own, it still wasn't. I don't know, I didn't really have like an aha moment. I was like, okay, so it sounds like there's a word but how useful is that generally? Because no one knows what it means. And I can't I every time I try and use it, the instinctive reaction of people is "Oh, no, you're not". So it wasn't like it was helping me to articulate anything. And it really didn't seem to exist outside of pockets on the internet. And even within those pockets on the internet, all I was seeing were, and no offense to this demographic, they're lovely, but it was white teenagers. So I was like, okay, is this like aware of the asexual people in real life? Or are the ones that look like me? Is this something that Tumblr made up? I have no evidence in the contrary, and no one believes me when I say it. So it wasn't actually even when I had the terminology it didn't really give me a huge amount of comfort, because people still did not understand it. And I was still dealing with everyone else's projections and questions. And I don't think it was really I lived by like a Don't Ask Don't Tell policy for most of my life, and I don't think people really accepted that I was asexual until 2019, which is when I was already doing all of these things. And I think that was when, yeah, that was like when people kind of understood that I was being serious when I said that, and it was literally because it was in the UK press. And somehow, if you read it in the newspaper, it's more believable than if I tell people in real life, that was when everyone was like, oh, Yasmin, you just came out? It was in the paper. And I'm like, No, I told you five years ago, I didn't just come out, you just didn't believe me. So it took quite a while before it was something that was even on people's radar. I was surprisingly conspicuous about it. But my online experiences and kind of what I had become known for was quite contrasting to my like, how I was perceived in my daily life.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Wow, yeah. I, you mentioned, you know, white folks on Tumblr, like, and having the amount of space that they take up around aceness. And I thought about that myself, I think about how I wasn't entirely sure if being asexual was a thing, because of the fact that it seemed like all of the ace role models were white, and particularly white men. And so I'm just really, and I mean, I'm even thinking about like, what's in the media, you know, like we see, some of the ace characters in the media are typically white men as well. And so one thing that I've been wanting to ask you is like, in what ways does like your Blackness play a role do you feel with your aceness and vice versa, like how does your Black identity and form your ace identity?
Yasmin Benoit
I mean, I don't think it informs it much for me, but it influences the way I navigate not just like society in general, but asexual spaces as well, because it's always influenced the way my asexuality was perceived, I'm quite sure that people would have found it easier to understand that I was asexual if I wasn't a Black teenage girl, because Black girls are hypersexualized, or just sexualized, in general, from a much younger age, you do not get to be a girl for as long. And I was already very much sexualized when I was like, I think my first experiences with sexualization was when I was in primary school when I was in my primary school uniform was when I started first notice men paying attention to me like that. And then as a teenager, everyone would always make very casual comments about my breasts and my body shape. And so when I did say, even though I ticked all of those stereotypically asexual boxes, I didn't tick the white one. And so people would very quickly go, oh, but you don't look asexual, you're not giving me that energy. And I do think that played quite a big role in people not being able to believe me.
And then when I kind of started with the activism, I think, on one hand within the community, it was beneficial, because people do like to use me as, and it can be in a positive way. But I do often there is an element of kind of tokenism. I am kind of like the token Black girl that they were allowed to say, Look, we're not all a bunch of white kids look here. And I think, you know, in that sense, it can be helpful in terms of, you know, challenging people's perceptions. But I've also had, you know, a lot of the challenges of, you know, when it comes to the activism or the way people react to my work, it's, I feel like, a lot of the backlash is definitely to do with me being black and even navigating the community, the way white activists are treated compared to me, I have noticed differences a lot. So it really does, it intersects a lot. And I think I'm becoming more conscious of the different ways that it intersects, the more work I do, and the more people I encounter it can get, it can be quite a tense intersection to be part of.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, I really feel that I really feel like it's, it's difficult. I mean, there's so many reasons why it's difficult to be ace in this world. And I think that the...the complexities of being Black can also create some challenges with that identity as well, because of the ways that Black folks and particularly Black women and femmes are both like erased but also hyper-visible. It's like fetishized but also invisibilized. And so, I think that I for me, and in particular I've been thinking a lot about what assumptions people have about me and my sexuality, based on my Blackness based on the work that I do, and how that this a sexual identity of mine sometimes feels like it rubs up against those things, perhaps not in like, a negative way. But it really does feel like a radical act like an act of resistance for me like my, my asexuality is an act of resistance against a lot of the stereotypes that have been put on me, about my body, about my sexuality, about the way that my desire is going to look like. So I really appreciate you just like speaking to your experience with that as well.
Yasmin Benoit
Yeah, and it's one of those things where I mean, I don't even think that some of the things that I say or do are very controversial, people just react very strongly to it, because it's me delivering it. Like there'll be times where I will say something and a white asexual person will say the exact same thing, but the reaction is completely different, just because of the layer of Blackness going on top of that. And what I do is then whenever I'm actually doing it or not people will hypersexualize everything, I'm doing, everything I'm saying. Judge me based on this perception that they have, and also see it as being inherently a lot more threatening, and a lot more aggressive. And there's a lot of definitely a lot of intersections that come into play with these things. And it is a strange thing to navigate. But at the same time I do I get a little bit of a kick out of the controversy because I feel like that means that I must be doing something a little bit right because when you challenge ideas as that's going to be part of the package. And I think that if I'm going to be someone that's treated as some kind of representative, I'm glad that I'm able to at least represent something a little different, because that's what I didn't see. When I was learning about asexuality. It was the people that got amplified the most and that I just said the media was most comfortable amplifying but at the community was also most comfortable amplifying was not like me. And I think that maybe that's part of why people like me, but then that's probably also why a lot of people don't but it's I think it's helpful either way.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, yeah. Talk to me a little bit about what acephobia is, because I posted something on the internet a few weeks back. And I was basically saying like, if you are coming out saying that you will not date someone who is asexual without understanding that aceness is on a spectrum and that not all ace people are sex-repulsed. And as well as the fact that like ace folks can have good relationships, they can be in love, they can have sex, that you're being acephobic, and a lot of the comments that I got were really supportive and a lot of people were applauding me for standing up in that way. And then there are a lot of people who were, I mean, there's just there's a whole bunch of shit that came from that conversation, a lot of gaslighting and a lot of people talking over me in terms of what asexuality is. Like I remember I was getting into a back and forth with this person that was like if you're having sex, that that means that you're not asexual. And I'm like, I'm sorry to tell you, sis, but you are wrong. Like ace people can have sex. I am a prime example of that. But there was also a lot of people who were trying to like rebuttal, this idea that I was saying about how folks are being acephobic if they choose not to date an ace person and it's and it's that like, age-old argument, which is like, you know, preference, it's not acephobic or it's not a phobia, if I have a preference, so I just like, I have so many questions about acephobia. But I just wonder before we get into it, maybe you could contextualize and like give a definition to what acephobia is and what it looks like.
Yasmin Benoit
Well, I think similarly to, I guess how you would define homophobia, biphobia. All of the other phobias, it pretty much just means having kind of, you know, negative or discriminatory attitudes towards asexual people or towards asexuality or people on the spectrum, but I think differently to things like homophobia because people often you know, they kind of like to make a comparison which isn't entirely helpful, where they reference you know, this historical systemic oppression that comes from having that type of sexuality, which obviously has not impacted asexuality in the same way. I think that when it comes to acephobia it tends to be a combination between, you know, kind of like interpersonal on a more interpersonal level, but also, it connects to wider things. It just connects to the way we're taught to understand sexuality in our society, the way we're taught to prioritize very specific types of sexuality, the way we're taught to understand like, the relation between romance and sexuality, and sexism plays a role, our expectations around masculinity. So there are a lot of intersections that come into it. But at the same time, I think they tend to come into any kind of queerphobia because there was an inherent element of queerness, within asexuality as well. And I think that all those things intersect, if that helps to define it.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, that really does. I mean, I am familiar with acephobia, because I've experienced a lot of it, since I've come out. But I know a lot of people don't really understand what acephobia is. I mean, one of the things that came up for me, during this time, when you know, I posted about acephobia, people were just talking about how like, it's not a phobia. It's just a preference. Like, I'm allowed to have my preferences, I'm allowed to say that I don't want to date ace people. And yeah, I just really appreciate you calling that out and giving us a definition about that.
Yasmin Benoit
Yeah, I mean, a lot of people, but I mean, I can kind of understand it, because not a huge amount of the population is asexual. And if you're not either experiencing it, or adjacent to it, you wouldn't know I mean, I didn't start encountering acephobia until, you know, I kind of started doing more of this public-facing stuff. And I don't think that a lot of people kind of realize how severe it can get. So I often like to tell people like you can use me as a rather extreme case study, look for when people say, Oh, that's not a thing. Like that doesn't happen, because people like to project quite a lot of it onto me, because I'm kind of easy target. Yeah, because it is an issue that people don't know much about. And they can't notice the more subtle manifestations. So at least if you can point them in the direction of more extreme examples that makes them consider where those attitudes come from.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah. And I mean, speaking of you being like, I don't know, a punching bag for folks, like, I see that you encounter a lot of acephobia. I mean, I think a few weeks back, you posted some screenshots of some of the comments that you get on Twitter, regarding your aceness. And I just like, I'm so curious, how do you take care of yourself in the face of all of the, the acephobia that you experience?
Yasmin Benoit
It's a hard one, because it's such an unnatural phenomenon. I feel like a lot of social media interaction ends up feeling quite unnatural, because it's often very one sided, like I am kind of one individual. And they often have hundreds of people. I mean, you you get a you have hundreds of people kind of speaking at you and whether it's positive or negative, at least for me, it can be a strange thing to process when these are people you don't know. And it is very, I mean, like what I posted was like a snippet. Like this was over a week long thing that escalated to the point where I was, almost had to go into a morning breakfast show and talk about it like that is how, that's how escalated this stuff got that it kind of breached into our mainstream press over here. And I'm not even sure if I deal with it that well, I think it's one of those things that just kind of, I'm quite thick skinned fortunately. I think if I wasn't, I wouldn't be able to do this job at all. But it's kind of like chipping a glass. It doesn't I don't crack. It doesn't break me. But it does chip at me and make me like, heightens my levels of agitation. For a while. It's like a car crash, like as much as you say, like, oh, well just don't look at it. It's impossible not to look at it when your phone is blowing up for a week. So it's, it's it is very strange, but I think I always try to like, put a bit of a disclaimer on it. Because often when I share these things, and people see it, other asexual people see it, I often sometimes get people say, Oh, I don't want to come out now. Because I don't want people to say that to me.
And I don't want people to think that the way people react to me is necessarily going to be how they react to everyone because as I mentioned before, there are a lot of intersections that play a role. And I think that if people didn't see me as being a kind of public figure to a degree, and having that kind of added layer of dehumanization that comes with that I'm seen as being fair game. Like I don't think journalists would target a random asexual person on Twitter, but they will target me and print some very mean articles because they see me as kind of being, I don't know, in that realm. So it's somehow, okay. So I do like to put a bit of a disclaimer and say, This isn't I don't think every asexual person is not going to get like that level. So don't be scared to, you know, come out and express yourself thinking that all of this will definitely happen to you, because it might do to an extent, but it probably won't in exactly the same way. I think a lot of things come into play for me.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, thank you for saying that. Because I that's one of the things that I've been thinking about, as I've come out. And also, as I know that other people are coming to terms with their aceness. Like, I think one of the reasons why it's taken me so long to reconcile and like, really embrace the truth of who I am as as an ace person, is because of the acephobia that comes from it. I mean, it's also other things like, you know, how sex obsessed our culture is, and how we view folks who are sexually active, as like healthy, desirable, lovable, etc, etc. But a lot of my fear around coming out as ace, and just like really claiming it for myself is because of that acephobia. And I know that there are folks who are listening who have read Angela Chen's book Ace, who have listened to other conversations that I've had on this podcast about being ace and they feel a sense of like resonance with that, but they don't want to come out because like, why would they people don't understand or, you know, like, maybe their partners will break up with them. And so I just one question that I have for you is like, what advice would you give to someone who feels like they might be ace, who thinks that they could be on the spectrum, but they're afraid to come out and embrace this part of themselves because of that acephobia?
Yasmin Benoit
I think. I guess one thing I would say is that, in every aspect of what I've learned about asexuality, like the internet is not always the most accurate depiction of how things will go. Like the kind of acephobia experience online, most people like 99% of people would not say that to my face, like the experiences that happen online, even asexuals in the LGBTQ plus community never happens. To me in person, the kinds of things that people will feel comfortable saying online, people will not say in real life. And sometimes the people that allowed us online are just assholes. To be honest, it's not necessarily representative of the general population. I think the majority of people that you encounter might be confused, but most will not care that much, to be honest. So do not, try not to psych yourself out too much with the fear that everyone's going to hate it and think you're a freak, and like, marginalize you and dislike you and all these things, because the asexual experience, like it's something like on one hand, you know, often people when they say things online, like Oh, my God, like nobody cares. A lot of the time, they are just trying to be douchey.
But I also but in some cases, people say that, because they're thinking, I've never really thought much about that I would not place any emphasis on having that experience. So it isn't something I would be concerned about. I know lots of people that don't have much sex or don't experience much sexual attraction, or this experience doesn't sound crazy to me. Because, you know, it isn't crazy. It's not that much of a...it might be an unusual experience to a degree. But I also think it's something that a lot of people empathize with, whether they're asexual or not, it's not totally unheard of.
So I think that you might be pleasantly surprised by how many people do not think it's very weird and do accept it and do just understand like that there are many different ways of experiencing sexuality. And that is just one of them. So I would encourage people that- maybe I contribute to this problem by drawing attention to acephobia. I hope I don't, I like to do that disclaimer for that reason, but don't see that kind of thing. And think, oh, my gosh, everyone in the world is going to be like that, no one's going to get it because not one person on this planet experiences sexuality in the same way, regardless of what label they use. And if people really care about you, and they're really worth you know, having in your life, then there'll be fine with it. And if they're not fine with it, then maybe dial him out of your life and connect to some new people.
Ev'Yan Whitney
That's right. Yeah, I mean, I think it's hard to put all of this into perspective to like folks like you and me, you know, we're sort of public figures and people know a lot more people know who we are than we know, a lot of other people who are perfect strangers. And so our experience of being ace publicly is going to be a lot different to, you know, a regular person who doesn't have a social media presence or doesn't do this as their job. So I think that that's an important thing to think about, too. Yeah, so we're talking a lot about, you know, I guess the shit of being ace, and asexual, and I know that in my conversations with other ace folks, or even just like thinking about my own self as an ace person, I feel like there's a lot of emphasis that's put on how hard it is to be ace in a hypersexual, sex obsessed world. How much phobia there is around aceness and misinformation. And I kind of just want to like talk a little bit about the joys of this experience of being ace. And particularly like, what joy is, have you found in your ace identity that not a lot of people know about? Or maybe there's not a lot of focus drawn on because I feel like the conversation about ace identity is about what we don't have, as opposed to like, the experiences and the depth and nuances of of those experiences that we have as a result of this information. So yeah, I would just, I want to make space for some like Black ass, asexual joy.
Yasmin Benoit
I mean, it is, it's interesting that there really is a big negative, I mean, a big focus on a negative. And that is something that I've, I've encountered, whenever I do interviews, and I've done documentaries, all those things are always like, you know, how terrible is this for you? How much did you struggle with that? And then it's very anticlimactic when I say actually, I'm fine. It was never a big deal. I think people really expect they come into it with this perspective that you're kind of like this unusual alien-like struggling to function in our society. And this is the biggest part of who I am as a person when the reason I didn't mention my asexuality for so many years online or just in general was because I do feel like there are lots of there are many other aspects of my personality that I felt like were more significant. Unfortunately, I've had so many other parts of me that I feel like we’re somehow weirder than my asexuality that it wasn't something that shocked me when I discovered that that was what I was. And I feel like I mean, for me, I've just found that being asexual is kind of allowed me to evaluate and understand sexuality from a different perspective and in a different way, and kind of keep the nuances of sexuality in perspective in a way that people don't necessarily do when, you know, they feel like there's a ready-made label for them. And they fit it quite easily. And they don't really have to do as much, you know, kind of evaluation into Oh, what is the difference between attraction and libido, or arousal, or romantic attraction, or aesthetic attraction, and all these things that asexual people end up thinking about. Because we're kind of, we have to analyze it a bit more to understand ourselves, because we're not, you know, immediately kind of given the tools to do that.
And I think that that is quite a positive thing. I think it's a good perspective to have. And, for me, I think my asexuality was just another kind of more unusual component of who I am, which I've accepted, and haven't allowed to kind of hinder me in any way. And I'm, and I think that, that the message that I hold on to it's not even specifically about being asexual, because I really, like it's just one element of who I am. But I think that the message I tend to take from it is, you know, it sounds super Disney Channel, but that whole, the power that comes with like being yourself and accepting yourself and the things I've managed to achieve, aren't because I'm asexual, it's because I've, I've, you know, managed to connect a lot of people and push myself and do things that I never thought I would be able to do and persevere, despite all of the things that people say. And I think that, you know, having a more unusual sexuality and navigating that has being quite helpful in strengthening, strengthening me up to a different degree. So I think that that is pretty positive.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Huh, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And thank you for indulging in a little bit of like the joys of being ace and also just like focusing on that, like, your aceness, our aceness, isn't all of who we are. I think that that's a narrative that I see so often when you know you Even just having conversations about sex, I mean, I think people put a lot of importance on sex in a relationship. And I think maybe that's what makes people so uncomfortable about ace folks is that we're out here saying, like sexes and everything, you know, like, there are other ways that we can relate to each other. There are other ways that we can be in relationship with each other. There are other things that are more important to us. And that doesn't make us any stranger or weird or like it is it just, it's a spectrum of, of how we experience the world. And I just I love this is the celebration that's happening here in this moment, which is kind of giving me permission to think about, you know, because I'm very new in my own ace journey right now. And it's making me think about like, Oh, yes, like, I am ace, but that's not all of who I am. That's just, that's just one part of who I am.
Yasmin Benoit
Yeah, and I think for me, it's been particularly kind of unusual, because I spent so long, you know, my I did kind of conceptualize asexuality in a way, where I was emphasizing, this is something I'm not doing. This is something I'm not feeling because for me if someone who's asexual and you know, doesn't actually have sex, and I'm aromantic as well. So it wasn't an element that played into my life that much unless people were projecting it onto me, which is why I just avoided any kind of conversation like that. So for me, one of the reasons why I didn't mention being asexual for so long, even when I had an audience wasn't out of fear. It was because I was like, who cares? Who cares about what I'm not doing, who cares about what I'm not thinking. And then once I did start mentioning it, it was interesting, because not only did people really care, but that I then kind of got lumbered with this concept from more critical people that oh, this is all I care about. This is all I am, this is all I think about. It's like, no, we just happen to live in a society where your sexual orientation is at the top is like one of your top characteristics. And if we're going to talk about sexuality, so much, you might as well expand that conversation. And so that's what I get asked about. So that's what I talk about. But it's not something that I really, you know, define myself with that much when I think of my sense of self. Like, it's just one element that influences my experiences, but it's not like, you know, it's not the top of my mind all the time. In all honesty.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Since you have these conversations about being ace so often, I'm wondering if there's like, there's any parts of you that like, you wish people talk to you about more? Like, maybe there's a question that you wish that you were asked in an interviews when you know, you're on these podcast, or you're having these features about your ace identity, and you're like, okay, but there are other parts of me, like, I'm just wondering what's coming up for you.
Yasmin Benoit
I mean, I guess it's, I mean, when I first started, like, I started writing articles, while I was modeling and trying to use that to, to express myself and I was always more talking about, like, you know, my experiences growing up as like, you know, as a Black girl in the UK and predominately white areas and being part of alternative subculture and my expression through fashion, and all of those things like that was like the first things that I started writing about. That's what I was originally. That's what my audience originally came from before I ever mentioned asexuality and I feel like those experiences intersected a lot. Because when I say that, like, you know, being asexual was never the weirdest thing about me. Because of all the experiences I'd already had, I was like, this is the one characteristic that I have that is invisible, thank God, like that is, this is not going to be like, This is not something that people are going to shout at me on the streets for, like, no one can see this factor in me. And so it was kind of, like, for me, that was always something that I kind of focused on more without the asexuality really playing that much of a role until later. And then, you know, my experiences of you know, I was, I have two degrees, most of my education has been in social science. I love sociology, that plays a role in my activism, and then the things that I write and I guess the way that I analyze things, and whenever I do things in the media, it's very much about Okay, so how do you feel when you wear underwear? How do you feel about this? Like, tell me about the lingerie and it's very much kind of "how can you be asexual and wear this?" and it tends to just kind of go down that path and it's like, there are so many bigger things we could be talking about, but a lot of the focus tends to vary much be on my appearance and, and how that works. When I love to get into like, you know, like the wider sociological things.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, like you're, you're obviously very layered. And I feel like sometimes that, I mean, you know, the label of being Black, the label of being queer, the label of being nonbinary, like these can, can flatten us in some ways. So thank you for forgiving a little bit more dimension in this conversation.
Yasmin Benoit
Thank you for asking, because I mean, it does it. Again, it's one of those things that intersects with my work anyway. And I try to expand what I talk about at least a little bit if I have the chance to go into it. I like to kind of bring up the things that we don't get to bring up that much. Like when I talk about asexuality and I have an asexual audience, I'll be like, Okay, let's talk about racism as well. I like to just throw other things in there as well, just to kind of expand the conversation outside of like the 101, because I think that we are, in some ways, still very much in a 101 stage. And I think that we don't frame asexuality enough as part of like, you know, the wider societal picture as opposed to just being something that like exists in a bubble.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes, yes, that's totally right. We're kind of wrapping up here. But I did want to ask, before we go, I have a couple of questions before we go. One is like, Can you shout out some ace role models for you? Like, I feel like the question that people ask me is like, how, how did you know that you were ace? And my question is, or my answer to that is, while I saw other people who modeled what it looked like to be ace and it helped me to be more confident and to feel more validated and affirmed in my own experience. You are one of those possibility models for me. So thank you for that. But I'm curious about like, who, who inspires you? Maybe shout out a few as role models that you've had, if any, that have helped you on your journey?
Yasmin Benoit
I mean, it's a, it's a difficult question. And I wish I could think of a way it doesn't make me sound like super self obsessed. But I didn't, I really didn't have any, honestly, because keep in mind that I realized I was asexual, I realized the terminology, this would have been like 2009. So the conversation was a bit different back then. I wasn't on social media that much. And the reason why I wasn't entirely able to use the word was because I didn't see any real role models. I mean, I saw David J, because he was one of the first people that came up, and we're friends now, we're coworkers. But I didn't really I didn't get to I didn't see anyone I could identify with. And so that was kind of why I ended up getting into doing this because I did see like there wasn't anyone representing the kind of experience of asexuality that I had. So I thought why not just try and represent myself. So I never really got to have that kind of figure in the same way. I mean, I've definitely I've had the chance to encounter people along the road that I've also that are also Black and asexual and have been allies to me, especially given how over prominently white the community happens to be particularly online. People like Sharronda, Brown is always has been very supportive of me. And Marshall Blount whose username is often Gentle Ace Giant. People like that have been, you know, quite supportive and helpful for me as other Black asexual people. But I didn't really get to have that kind of, oh, here's an example of asexuality I can connect to I might have been easier if I had been. So now honestly, my example is often myself. I have my own example. As strange. as it sounds, I'm representing what I wanted to see. represented, I guess.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, I mean, I don't think that there's any shame in you being your own, your own role model and muse, I think as Black folks, we have to you in so many ways already. And so as unfortunate as it is, there's also a bit of power with that because that means that we get to create our ourselves in our own image, which I feel like, you know, there's this image that we're quote unquote, supposed to have of like whiteness, and I don't know there's something very radical to me about Black folks in particular saying like, No, I'm gonna create myself in my own image. I mean, it's a little lonely. It'd be nice to have more possibility models, but at least we've got ourselves you know?
Yasmin Benoit
yeah, when you put it in, you phrase it like that, and like creating yourself into it, which sounds almost very biblical, but it doesn't sound like God, but it does sound it sounds nice. Yeah. When you put it like that, I guess you kind of have to, you know, represent yourself sometimes. And it's yeah, it can be kind of lonely, but at the same time, I think there is definitely a powerful and be a power and being able to shape your own narrative and not have to rely on other people to do You know, represent you, or you're like, oh, I have to see someone like this to feel better with myself. You can kind of reach a stage where you're like, No, I, I, myself am actually enough. And that's fine. I think that that's not a bad place to be at.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes, yes. Thank you so much for sharing yourself with me today with everyone. Thank you so much for the work that you do as an activist and an advocate for Ace folks. And yeah, I'm just I'm so grateful that you take up the space that you take, and that you are a possibility model for so many people who are questioning whether or not they are in this ace experience. And I feel like the way that you embody aceness is just from someone that's like looking on the outside in is like, there's a lot of playfulness with your aceness that I really appreciate. You know, I think so much of what I have seen in the past around this conversation of asexuality as an identity, it's been so stoic and serious. And yeah, I just I really appreciate the space that you take up that feels very playful and light, but also really just like badass. Like, if I were to think of someone who is like an asexual superhero, it would totally. So thank you, thank you for that. I really appreciate this, the space that you take up and the way that you're so visible in this work.
Yasmin Benoit
Thank you so much. Those are all my favorite words, you flew in there, like a superhero like this, definitely, if I want to emulate any vibe, those are the vibes. Like if you're going to talk about these kinds of subjects, it doesn't have to be serious, it can be fun, we're talking about sex half the time, like, sex is silly. When you think about it, you can have fun with it. So I'm glad that it comes across that way. And thank you for having me on here and showing your support and helping me to reach new people, I really appreciate it. And it's just great to see like other Black women being able to—just Black people and Black aces anywhere, just being able to kind of speak about those experiences and amplify the Black ace experience because it's definitely an underrepresented one. So thank you for allowing me to do that here. And thank you for your support. It's great, it means a lot.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Thank you. Well, before we go tell us where we can find you. If you have any cool projects coming up. We would love to hear about them.
Yasmin Benoit
I'm- well you can find me @TheYasminBenoit. My Twitter and Instagram are verified so those are the ones that are definitely me. My website is YasminBenoit.Co.UK. And I mean, what am I doing next? I'm very interested in tackling some legislative issues. I have some projects that are relating to that that will hopefully be coming into fruition in 2022. So that's what's hopefully next for me. There's a lot of gaps to fill, and I do my best to fill as many as I can. So fingers crossed, that's something I can help to tackle at some point.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Wonderful. Well, thank you so much Yasmin for coming on the podcast today. And I look forward to seeing you in these Black asexual streets.
Yasmin Benoit
Thank you.
. . .
Ev'Yan Whitney
Man, I, I have so much gratitude for Yasmin for just sharing her experience of asexuality and also for her work in helping to destigmatize and unshame, what it means to be ace and Black in this very over-sexualized sex-obsessed world that we live in. So yeah, thank you Yasmin once more for showing up and for being such a light in this space. We talked about so much in this episode. But one of the things that I haven't been able to stop thinking about is this idea of a possibility model. If you've never heard of it, possibility model is a person who shows you one possible way of being human in this world where maybe you didn't see that version of being a human in this world before. And it makes me think of this quote, that's one of my favorites. It comes from Marian Wright Edelman, who says that “You can't be what you can't see.” And particularly for marginalized folks, possibility models are vital for us to be affirmed and see ourselves with our various identities and intersections and others. And sometimes, unfortunately, we got to be that for ourselves, like, we got to be our own possibility models.
I said something in this conversation about creating yourself in your own image. And I remember Yasmin said something about it being very biblical. And that is not how I meant it. What I meant instead was that creating yourself in your own image is the act of actualizing yourself from the highest image that you visualize for yourself outside of any scripts, or shoulds that have been bestowed upon you. Outside any narratives that have told you who or what you're supposed to be, or, in alignment with this episode, what your sexuality is supposed to look like. That, to me, is what liberation is this idea of like willfully choosing who you are, and allowing yourself to embrace the full spectrum of that.
And so all of this is making me think about what creating yourself in your own image looks like for you, particularly in these realms of sensuality, sexuality, and coming into our bodies. Ages ago, I used to teach this digital course called 30 Days of Sensuality; shout out to you if you ever took it. And one of the exercises that I gave, I think it was day 19. It was about conjuring up your most sensual self with your mind's eye, like really dreaming up this pleasure embodied version of you. That's a mix of who you are now and who you want to be. And that is the kind of practice I want to leave you with today, I feel like it's, it's pretty appropriate.
So here's what I want you to do, I want you to get a mirror. It can be full length or hand size, just as long as you can see your face in it. And I want you to create some time this week to sit in front of it. And look into your own eyes. But before you begin this practice, take some time to set the intention for it. So take a deep breath into your belly. Exhale it out slowly, with a sigh, maybe making that exhalation longer than your inhale, that could feel good. You can then light a candle, and maybe call in your ancestors or spirit team, or your higher self to meet you in this space and during this practice. And whenever you're ready, you can begin this practice of gazing in the mirror at yourself as you dream up and conjure visions of who you want to be sexually, sensually and fully embodied. And of course, I've got some prompts for you that you can ask yourself to help guide these images into being. You are welcome to write these down. Or take this part of the podcast with you during your practice.
So when you're in this practice, and as you are sitting in front of your mirror, as you look in your reflection, take a moment to take in who you see. So study your own face. Study the shape of your eyes, the curvature of your mouth, the lines and dots and scars, the color of your skin. Just really take that all in and see if you can see yourself as you are without judgment. You're just a human with this unique face, having this unique experience. Then, as you continue to softly gaze into your own eyes, maybe with a soft smile on your lips, began to imagine in your mind's eye, your most sensual self. Someone who is embodied. Someone who is soft. Someone who has really amazing boundaries. Someone who takes care of themself. You're welcome to use a different word if sensual isn't the word for you. Maybe it's confident or powerful or easeful.
Whatever that word is for you start to think about who you would be if you were the fullest expression of this version of you. What does this version of you look like? What are you wearing? How do you do your hair? What does this version of you smell like? How do they walk? How do they speak? What kind of people do they choose to be intimate with? Pausing here to notice any sensations that are coming up in your body as you contemplate these questions. Also noticing what images or information is coming through your mind as you contemplate this version of you. Some more questions- How does this version of you take care of themself? What makes their body soften? What shoulds or conventional standards have they divested from? What words or identities are they claiming courageously as theirs? And what have they healed or liberated within themselves to make this expression feel easeful and authentic? Check in with the body. Check into what's coming up. Just notice and breathe and feel.
You're welcome to stay here gazing and dreaming as long as you wish. But as you come to the end of this practice, whenever that is, ask this higher version of you to give you a message. A message of wisdom or encouragement as you continue to create yourself in your own image. Maybe you can ask for something you might need, or a piece of advice if ever you waver from your path. Or maybe you ask for a practice that you can engage in to help nourish this version of you into being. Whatever that is just ask that of yourself and see what comes through. And when this practice is done, when you're feeling complete, take a moment to write down what came up for you. So any thoughts or images or feelings, ideas, memories. Also make note of what sensations came up in your body as you explored this version of you. And feel free to come back to this practice as you continue this process of creating yourself in your own image.
. . .
Sensual Self is created and hosted by me, Ev’Yan Whitney. It is edited by myself and Tribble. Music is by Melodiesinfonie from his song called ‘Just Healing.’
For show notes, transcripts, and resources for your sensuality, go to evyanwhitney.com/podcast. You can also follow the show on Instagram @sensual.self.
As for me, I’m on Instagram at @evyan.whitney, and you can check out evyanwhitney.com to find out more about me and my work.
Also check out my book Sensual Self: Prompts and Practices For Getting in Touch With Your Body. You can find that wherever you find books.
Thanks so much for being here and I’ll see you in the next one.