Episode 56: I’m Asexual, Not Broken (with Angela Chen)
What if it was okay that you don't want to have sex? In this one, Ev'Yan speaks with Angela Chen (author of Ace) about asexuality and ace liberation. Angela debunks a lot of myths about asexuality and educates us on how nuanced the Ace spectrum is. She talks about the fluidity of desire and how we don’t need to pathologize those who don’t have much of it; the connection between sexual trauma and Aceness; and how asexuality offers a flexible, fluid perspective of sexual desire. Ev'Yan also shares very candidly about her experience of realizing that, after all this time denying it, she is on the Ace spectrum.
“[Asexual people] want everyone to feel that they are fine no matter how they are sexually.” —Angela Chen
Full transcript of this episode is below.
Also mentioned in this episode:
Angela Chen is the author of Ace: What Asexualitiy Reveals About Desire, Society, and the Meaning of Sex. Her reporting and essays have appeared in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Atlantic, National Geographic, Paris Review and more.
Transcription:
Hey, welcome to Sensual Self. I'm Ev'Yan Whitney and this is a space for you to slow down, tune in, heal and feel the sensations and pleasures of your sensual body. Thank you for being here.
Have you ever read a book that changed your life? Like, genuinely change the way you see yourself and made a profound impact on your identity as a whole. I've had that experience myself only a few times in my life. Some of the books that I still think about and continue to inform who I am and how I move in the world, are Gender Outlaw, The Politics of Trauma. Come As You Are, Pleasure Activism—which if you haven't already, check out my conversation with Adrienne Marie Brown on episode 54.
But one of the latest books I've added to my changed my life shelf is Ace by Angela Chen. I honestly didn't know what I was getting into when I picked up this book. I got it because I realized that as a sex educator, I wasn't well versed on the topic of asexuality, which is not all my fault. So many of the resources about asexuality have been either really sparse or just straight-up misinforming up until really recently. So Ace for me was a book that I was interested in reading to help me educate myself about the ACE experience, so that I can be as inclusive as I can within my work as a sexuality doula. So I'm reading this book. And within the first two pages, literally, I was starting to feel feelings. Feelings of recognition, feelings of excitement, and relief, and fear about that recognition. And I was like, Huh, this is weird. I'm reading a book by an asexual author, about the a sexual experience. And I'm relating to it. Like, really, really relating to it. Um, I think I might be ace?!
The moment I said that to myself, I was like, Oh, no, no, no, no, no, I couldn't be Ace because I have sex. And I enjoy having sex. And someone who is asexual doesn't experience any of those things, which sidebar, that's both true and false. And also, that line of thinking really just shows how deep my Ace phobia is. But anyway, I was having all of these thoughts and having so many feelings about these thoughts, that I actually stopped reading the book for a little bit, because I was really struggling with the idea that I might be Ace, after so many years of trying not to be. It was really intense. And ultimately, I decided to keep reading the book. Because despite my uncomfortable feelings about what I believe, has always been true about my sexuality. I felt guided by that feeling of recognition, to keep going to keep finding myself.
After having read so many books on sex, and sexuality, and desire, this was one of the first times where I actually felt seen and affirmed in my experience of sexuality. About a year or so after I finished reading, Ace a second time, I publicly came out, so to speak about being ace. And I actually had the pleasure of being interviewed by Angela Chen in the Atlantic for a piece about asexuality and identity and sex education. And a link to that article will be in the show notes. And after that article was out, the cat was out of the bag.
As I'm talking about this, I'm realizing that my own narratives of shame and fear of asexuality is poking through right now. And as you can see, I'm still unlearning that phobia. I'm still unpacking what it means for me to be Ace and how that's okay. What I will say is that it's conversations with other Ace folks like Angela that helped me feel like sexually I am okay as I am. And I've never felt that. I've never felt like who I am sexually, when it comes to how I desire, or how my attraction shows up, is okay. I've always come to my sexuality from a place of fixing it. And so this is new territory for me being in a place where I can just let my sexuality and my libido and the way that I desire be without shame.
So that was a very, very long-winded introduction to this episode. And in case you haven't guessed already, I am speaking with Angela Chen today about her book Ace and asexuality. We talk about a lot of things and hear about the very nuanced spectrum that is asexuality about the language of desire. And how mutable desire is, we talk about compulsory sexuality and how culture has pathologized folks who are asexual.
And speaking of that, so we talk about HSDD, which is something that I have spoken about on this podcast before I did a sponsored episode where I was talking about my fluctuating desire, and my struggles with it. And how the more common word to describe this, quote-unquote conundrum is hypoactive sexual desire disorder, or HSDD, you can look that up if you're interested. Now, I got a little flack for that episode, not so much about the content, because it was very much about my own experience of my desire. But more so about the sponsor, which I completely understand. And what's been made very clear to me, as I have come to bring acceptance to my, quote, unquote, desire disorder is that my feelings have changed about it. As I've said before, I'm in the process of unlearning, that the way I desire is not something that needs to be fixed. And I don't think that you should feel like you have to fix it within yourself. If that is your experience. I actually never have. You do you, of course, always.
And while I do still stand by a majority of that episode—because again, it was about my own experience of my sexual desire—because of this new knowledge about asexuality being on a spectrum, and seeing myself as being on that spectrum, I'm not too keen on that episode anymore. Like, knowing what I know now, and unpacking my own acephobia, I don't think I would do a sponsorship with a brand that was working within the system to pathologize low desire. As a matter of fact, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I would not do a sponsorship like that today.
I understand now that that episode is harmful to ace folks. It's harmful to me. And you know, I thought about removing it. I've gone back and forth for months about whether or not I should just delete the damn thing. But for now, at least, as of this recording, I am going to keep that episode up as a way to signify my growth and to also hold myself accountable to the missteps I've made along the way in my career. And I just want to say that if you listened to that episode back when it aired for the first time, or if you have listened to it recently, and you have felt harmed by that, I'm sorry. I truly am. I'm sorry.
Okay. I have been talking for a century. Let me stop babbling so that you can dive into the goodness of this chat with Angela Chen. And of course, a reminder, stay till the end for a little something, something you can use to connect to yourself, sensually. Enjoy!
Ev'Yan Whitney
Angela, thank you so, so much for being on the podcast to talk to me about asexuality today.
Angela Chen
Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm so excited.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Oh, I'm honestly containing my excitement. I've been wanting to have this conversation with you since the first few pages that I read from your book, Ace which I'm just going to gush a little bit so bear with me. I love this book. Of all the books I've read and I've read so many in my life. This is definitely in my top five books that have changed my life. And, I mean, I go through my book and I just like page through it. And I see. I mean, I've highlighted things, I've underlined things, I've written things in the margins, a lot of what I've written in the margins is just like multiple exclamation points. And also a lot of wows, because, like, the amount of education and information and just like, really, for me, just shaking the foundations of a lot of beliefs that I had, and still hold today about sex, sexuality, my sex and sexuality, were just, yeah, they were just transformed. And oh, my gosh, I just I am so excited to be talking to you, because I have so many questions, so many questions.
Angela Chen
Absolutely. Let's do it. I'm so glad you like the book.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, the book was was incredible. Actually, I want to start by asking what what made you decide to write a book about asexuality?
Angela Chen
The honest answer is because I realized that I was Ace, or, you know, which is the word for someone who is asexual, but I realized it when I was in my 20s, after I'd been in these serious relationships, and as someone who does have sex and enjoy sex, and so that's not what most people think about when they think about someone who is asexual. Usually, I think when people hear the word they assume it means someone who is celibate, or someone who hates sex. And I'd even come across that definition, or I thought I'd come across that definition, a decade before. So once I actually realized I was Ace all of these doors open to me, it was just such a nuanced and such an interesting way to think about the world. And what even is sexuality? And what are the pressures that all of us are under? And it felt like, people weren't talking about this in the mainstream, and I wanted to help that.
Ev'Yan Whitney
And I'm so glad you did. Because you're you're absolutely right. I mean, I have been in this sexuality education field for over a decade, and a lot of my own information about asexuality, ace-ness was has been like really just, like dogmatic and really confusing. There's a lot of misinformation out there. And so I can't even remember why I got the book, I actually, I think I got Ace, because I wanted to, I realized that there was like, for lack of a better term, like blind spots and the way that I have been educated and also the way that I facilitate and hold space for my students and my clients. And I was like, man, of all the years that I've been doing this work, I haven't done a lot of research or study about the ace experience. And so I kind of I picked up your book just from this place of like, okay, cool, like, let me educate myself. And I was, Oh, my gosh, I didn't expect to resonate so deeply with the ace experience, and actually within the first couple of pages. So wait, let me take a step back. So back in the day, before I started doing the work that I do now, I wrote an article on the internet, you can't find it because the blog is now taken down. But I was talking about how difficult sex was for me, I was newly married at the time, I was in this really beautiful loving relationship with a partner. We're still together today. But for whatever reason I couldn't, sex was really difficult. And I was feeling just so burdened, and so upset at myself, and so full of shame. And I remember saying that, most nights if I had to choose between eating a piece of chocolate cake and sex, I would choose chocolate cake. And so as I'm reading this book, which actually references that, I think that that is like, that is a term or that is like an adage that a lot of ace people say, in reference to their own sexual desire. Is that right?
Angela Chen
Yeah, it's a joke that for aces cake is better than sex. Yeah, it's kind of an in-joke. Yeah.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah. Yeah. So as I was reading your book, I was like, This is weird. I, I'm reading this book for education. Why do I feel so like, like, you're talking about me and my experience. And so there was like this, this? I don't know, if there was an excitement. There was a curiosity about that. But there was also a sense of shame. Like, fuck, I think I might be ace. And I wanted to ask you like, what is that? Like, where does that come from? And I wonder if, if, if you're familiar with that, or if you've ever experienced that, maybe when you were writing the book?
Angela Chen
Absolutely. And for me, once I realized that I was Ace it just at one point in the beginning, it felt like it was this mill around my neck. You know, it felt like something that I was going to have to deal with. And then I became ashamed that I felt bad about it because it seemed like internalized bigotry. So definitely there was that feeling there. And sometimes, you know, I'll talk to other aces or people who are newly realizing their ace. And they'll have the same complex mix of emotions, which is, you know, I recognize something here in my experience, I recognize this value, there's also part of me that's rejecting it. But then there's also a part of me that doesn't want to reject it. But you know, it feels bad. And I think what I always said to people, and what I wish I would have said to myself, when I was first realizing this is, on the one hand, it's okay to feel what you're feeling, you know, that shame. In a sense, it does not belong to you. It didn't come from nowhere, you know, I was not born feeling ashamed about being ace, or really feeling ashamed, I think about any form of sexuality. This is what we've absorbed, and it will take a lot of work to undo that. And it's not going to be in immediate process. So yes, one, those are your feelings don't feel bad about them. They were given to you by society to hold. But on the other hand, you know, it's not a bad thing to be ace. And in fact, there's a lot of glorious things about it. And a lot of ways that being ace helps you see the world in a different way. When I was selling the book, I think one question publishers always have is, you know, who is going to be interested in this? And in my case, the question was kind of like, will people be interested in this if they're not asexual? You know, how many asexual people out there in the world? And for me, one, there's a lot of people out there who don't know that they might be ace spectrum. Yeah, so it's not this, you know, binary between ace and not ace. But the other part of it is, even if you're not ace, I think so many people have felt a sense of pressure and shame around their sexuality. For some people, it's maybe they want quote unquote, too much. But for a lot of people, it's just they feel like they don't want enough. And they feel like they're not vibrant and liberated if they don't want enough sex and a very specific kind of sex, and you don't have to be ace to experience that kind of shame too.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes, yes. I'm so glad that you said that. Because that was another thing that I was, that came up for me as I was reading your book, which is that, man, not only am I ace, but I suspect that there are like, like millions and millions of other people who are ace and they don't know it. Because this idea of ace-ness, as a spectrum, actually, I'm gonna have you describe for us or explain to us what asexuality is. Because I think that like, I imagine that for a lot of folks, hearing the word asexual, their immediate response is like, Oh, this is someone that like, doesn't ever have sex or hates sex, or feels a repulsion to sex, which can be like that can be somebody is experience. But what I loved about reading your book, is that like, aceness is not black or white. It's very nuanced. And so could you explain to us what asexuality is, from your perspective?
Angela Chen
Absolutely. So the most common definition is a person who doesn't experience sexual attraction. And so this is the definition that I saw when I was 14 years old. I mentioned that earlier. And I saw that and I thought, cool. And basically what I interpreted as is a person who doesn't experience sexual attraction equals a person who hates sex. And I didn't have any value judgments toward it. I didn't think it was bad. I just thought, That's not me. You know, at 14, I didn't I hadn't had sex yet. But I expected to, I thought it was going to be great. Everyone was telling me was going to be great. I, you know, was a teenager and American society. And so it took me so long to understand that people can not experience sexual attraction without being repulsed by sex. So, you know, this gets into all of these kind of deep questions. But you know, what even is attraction, so I'll try to keep this short. Basically, the food metaphor that I use is, you know, you can imagine there's foods that you are attracted to like cake, for example. And then there are foods that you're repulsed by like, broccoli or something. And then maybe there's a food that you don't feel that hunger for just on its own, like crackers is what I usually say. But maybe you have an emotional reason, and you crave them for that emotional reason. Like maybe your beloved grandmother, you know, always fed you crackers and reminds you of her and it's comforting. And so I realized that was me that I didn't feel you know, this sexual attraction toward other people, but I felt aesthetic attraction. I had people that I found beautiful, I felt romantic attraction. I've been in long term relationships for most of my life now, and I wasn't repulsed by sex. I enjoy just the feeling and the sensations of it. And so even as an ace person, I was drawn to sex for other reasons. And that kind of hid the lack of sexual attraction. And I think that's the case for many people.
Ev'Yan Whitney
When you say sexual attraction is that, like, you see someone walking on the street, you don't know them? And you immediately see them and you have this vision of or this desire in your body and your bones to have sex with them? Or is sexual attraction for you like, sort of like a natural nudge or a pull towards having sex? Does that make sense?
Angela Chen
That does make sense. And the very complicated answer is that in some ways, I'm not sure anyone knows what sexual attraction really is. And I'm so serious, because I've interviewed a philosopher about this, and studies, attraction and the philosophy of sexuality. And it's so hard for people to... it's kind of, it's one of those, like, I know it when I feel it kind of thing. Ah, so the way that you know, I think about it, is that some people can just feel the desire to have sex, and it doesn't have to be with a person, you know, you can just be horny, essentially, you know, all by yourself in your room, right? And then when you feel that desire toward a specific person, that desire to have sex, that's sexual attraction. And for me, you know, I have, I have desire to have sex with my partners, but it's never been for purely physical reasons. I don't think I've ever walked down the street and saw someone and was like, I, I'm thinking about sex with them, you know, I don't have intrusive thoughts about sex, I could go the rest of my life, not thinking about sex unless someone you know, brought it up to me. Whereas I have friends who are allosexual, which is someone who's not asexual, and they'll say things like, I don't even like that person. And I want to have sex with them. Don't even think they're attractive, but I just find them hot and this visceral level. And that's a really alien experience to me.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Okay, that's so interesting. And I think it's actually kind of comforting that there is like, I don't know what sexual attraction is. Because anytime I was reading your book, and you know that that phrase, sexual attraction came up, I was like, but what does that mean, though, is that like, a sexual attraction, like you see someone queue at a bar, but then that's another thing that you kind of dissected or kind of distilled down, which is like, just because you find someone attractive or good to look at doesn't mean that you want to have sex with them, you might just have an aesthetic attraction to them. Which, you know, just really opened my eyes to the way that I experienced desire. And the way that I think that I think you said something in your book about how, like, you were talking about friends who were using this language around, and I'm totally paraphrasing here, but like, using this language around like, oh, that person is hot, or whatever. And like, your, the way that you were interpreting that, or the way that you meant that was completely different to what they meant, like maybe for them, it was like, Oh, yeah, I totally want to have sex with that person. And for you, it's like, oh, yeah, they're really, they're nice to look at. But it's, there's no sexual like, verve there.
Angela Chen
Absolutely. And I think really, so much of the book is about language. And you know, what words we use and what we mean. And if you think about it, we use words in this very fuzzy way. You know, a lot of my friends, and this was probably in high school in college. Looking back, I know that when they said that person was hot, they would, they were experiencing a sensation, in a way, you know, like, their skin was tingling, or they were feeling flushed, or they felt warm, and they wanted to have sex with them. And like you said, when I said that was hot, I would think, Oh, you know, they have they're so stylish. I was definitely attracted to people. I've always been attracted and drawn by people. I've had crushes. You know, there are people who I think I wish they would text me back. But there was, you know, there are people who I think are so attractive, I can't stop looking at them. But there was never that sexual component for me, but because we talk about attraction in such blurry ways, the words I use were just exactly the same as for someone who does experience sexual attraction.
Ev'Yan Whitney
right? Right. So like, it's like everything that everyone is talking about the same thing when we're actually we just our language, we don't have enough words in our vocabulary to really like break down the nuances of attraction, desire, sexuality orientation, things like that.
Angela Chen
Yeah, absolutely. You know, at one point in the book, I talked about how when I was in high school, one of my classmates got pregnant. And I remember thinking, How could she do that? Not in this shameful way. Because I've always been very progressive, but in a in a very literal, you know, it's very easy to have to not have sex like you have to go out of your way to have sex. And you know, we've all grown up is environment where teenage pregnancy is this Boogey Man, you know, how could what could have caused her to do it? And you know, a decade later, it's, oh, I understand what caused her to do it, but at the time, I had no one idea that my experience was not everyone else's experience.
Ev'Yan Whitney
You know, something that I hear a lot in my work and I've heard so much in, you know, the education that I've done about sex and sexuality is that sexuality is on a spectrum, but I'm not sure how many people really understand the spectrum of sexuality. And I think one of the things that came up really big for me in this book is that there is a spectrum to asexuality that it's not you either want sex and love it, or you hate sex, and you don't want it. It's like there is there's a spectrum and it's making me think about demisexuality. Because I have identified as demisexual for I mean, last like maybe handful of years or so when I figured out that that was a thing that you could identify as, and I was totally down with that until I realized, oh, but if you're demisexual, that means you're on the ace spectrum. And that immediately, like I was like, Oh, no, no, I can't I can't be ace like that's, that's not a thing that people should want. Like, basically, if you're ace that means that there's something wrong with you. And so I wondered if you could talk a little bit about compulsory sexuality. I know that some folks might be familiar with compulsory heterosexuality, but like what, what is compulsory sexuality and how does that rub up against the ace experience?
Angela Chen
Yeah, I really like talking about compulsory sexuality because again, it's a structural thing you don't have to be ace to experience it. So compulsory sexuality is this idea that all you know normal healthy adults are sexual and should be sexual and that if you're not, there's something wrong with you. And so see this you know, in the medical world, you know, in the DSM which is what people used to diagnose psychiatric disorders there is some an entry in there that basically sounds like asexuality you know, that is a medicalization of what I believe is just natural human variation
Ev'Yan Whitney
Are you talking about HSDD?
Angela Chen
Yeah yeah, HSDD
Ev'Yan Whitney
I don't mean to interject, but I just want to say this out loud. I have talked about HSDD on the podcast before I did a campaign with a company that was talking about HSDD and really like trying to dispel the myths and like, bring less shame and more empowerment to the topic. And so the part of your book where you start talking about HSDD was really like, holy shit. Like it smacked me over the head. And if you don't mind, I would love to actually read this one part that just like, oh, it just, it just, like shook me. So you say “Disorders of desire are about seeing difference and calling it a problem. Asexuality is about embracing variation and avoiding the language of disorder, even if being asexual can be inconvenient. I and most aces simply do not believe that there is anything wrong with low desire, or lack of sexual attraction. We do not believe that there is any moral obligation to work on increasing sexual desire. Wanting sex should not be a requirement of health or humanity.”
Angela Chen
Yeah, I still stand by that, thankfully.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Oh, my god that like that shook the bones of so many beliefs that I have about low desire.
Angela Chen
Yeah, I think you know, so there is this reality where if you are deviant, again, quote, unquote, either direction, if you have too much, or too little of something, the reality is that can that can just create some kind of relational issues, right? Like if there's a mismatch, and it can be anything, you know, maybe I really like traveling, and my partner doesn't like traveling. And you know, that can be stressful, but that the reality that difference can sometimes be stressful to negotiate becomes this idea that it is actually this inherent problem that we have this moral, you know, moral duty to change, it doesn't just become Okay, you and your partner have different wants and needs, how can you compromise, it becomes, oh, you actually are sick, you actually need medication? Have you tried mindfulness? Have you tried yet another sex toy? You know, there's, the approach is, you know, there's room for a nuanced approach there because I think there should be room for people to not try to raise their desire levels if they don't want to, I think there should be room for people to experiment with that, if that's what they want, and it's important to them. But starting from a place where it is a disorder where there's something wrong with you, that just creates so much guilt and shame. Like you're the one who's bringing down your relationship, or even if you don't have a partner, like you're not this vibrant, passionate person, that most of us want to be.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah. Where does compulsory sexuality come from?
Angela Chen
I, you know, I don't know what I don't know if I have a great answer for that. And I've asked a lot of people, and I'm not sure. I mean, sometimes people will say, Oh, you know, it's because the species needs to, you know, reproduce and have children. But, you know, plenty of people don't have children. And, you know, so I don't know if there's a good answer, there's a good answer for that off top my head. I've been thinking about it a lot.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, I just like, I just wonder, like, where did it start? Where did this story or this narrative start that in order to be a healthy adult, you have a you have an abundant sexual appetite? Like where, what like, what, where was that standard created? And like, who created that standard? Or where is that standard being measured up to? I've always wondered that.
Angela Chen
I think it's really different across time and place, because you know, nowadays, I think that there is this idea that adults should have this abundant sexual appetite. But I know that definitely wasn't true in the past, especially for women. You know, I think, you know, in the past, there have been expectation that women didn't have a sexual appetite at all, or sorry, that had that they weren't lusty, but they were still expected to have some kind of sexual appetite. So I don't think there's one answer because it changes so much through time and place. But if I were just to wildly speculate, I think the very, very early origins might have to do with the fact that the reality is, you know, having children and having sex was kind of considered a duty. You know, and maybe it comes from that.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Talk a little bit about low desire and asexuality. I mean, we kind of touched on it a little bit ago with HSDD, which is hypoactive sexual desire disorder. I think if I got that. It's such a mouthful. It's such a mouthful. And I know that I know that there's been some talk amongst the community that, you know, asexuality is not about desire, that it's about attraction. But in my experience, and you know, I don't know if it's because of trauma, I don't know if it's because of the antidepressant that I'm on my low desire feels very intertwined or interlinked with my aceness. So I wonder like, Is there a correlation there? And, you know, is it is, is that something that, I don't know, could be helpful for folks who are like, I have low desire, I don't know why, maybe I'm ace.
Angela Chen
First of all, absolutely, there's a correlation. I think, in practice, many aces, both don't experience sexual attraction and have low desire. So they really go closely together for a lot of aces. And I think that can be something that can be helpful for people, like you said, you know, they're trying to figure out, you know, quote, unquote, why they have no desire, maybe, maybe they're ace, but I also think that to me, we don't maybe we don't even need to bring a sexuality into it. What if just having low desire is fine? No, there are people who are not as their allosexual, they do experience some sexual attraction, but not a lot. And I don't want people to think the only way I have permission to be myself, to not always be trying to raise my desire level is to not always be trying to change. I don't want people to think that the only way they can have those things if they're ace. You know, claim asexuality if you if you want, I would love that. But what if it was fine for everyone? Regardless of where you were on these very spectrums?
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, oh, that's a thought. That's, that's a really big thought, actually. And it makes me also think about because I talk about aceness and asexuality a lot without actually talking about it, I realized and I think that's partially to do with some shame that I have around still around the stigma of asexuality. But one thing that comes up a lot, as I speak to even folks who follow me in my work, I actually asked like, a few months back, like I asked this on Instagram, like “Have any of you ever thought or might have suspected that you were Ace? And like what was the reason why you were coming to that, you know, that understanding about yourself?” And so many of the answers, I mean, almost like 90% of the answers and I got like over 1000 were of folks saying like, I think I've always thought that I might be ace because of my sexual trauma. My sexual trauma has made it so that sex doesn't feel safe for me or that like, you know, I don't have a high sex drive. And so I thought that I was ace because of my sexual trauma. But now I'm realizing it's not like it's just sexual trauma. Can you speak a little bit about like, that correlation also between the traumatic experiences that you had? And how maybe ace could or aceness could be involved in that?
Angela Chen
Yeah, absolutely. So I think it's true, of course, that sexual trauma, and many other things can affect your desire and can affect your attraction. And, you know, in the beginning parts of the ace community, there was this kind of gatekeeping, where, you know, aces were, it was very important to aces to be seen as legitimate. And there was this idea that if you are disabled, or if you are a survivor of sexual trauma, or sexual assault, then you're not really ace, because it was just caused by something else, you know, there was really this desire for a sexuality to be seen as this, born this way, lifelong, never, ever going to change kind of thing in order to make it legible, and legitimate to the people who don't believe that asexuality is valid. And there's a lot of people like that today. And I think that over time the ace community has become a lot more open and welcoming. And I think the idea now or I hope the idea now is something more like, okay, you know, maybe you are ace because of your sexual trauma. And that's fine. You know, what can the community offer? The community offers the idea that, you know, let's say, Well, let me put it this way. I think a lot of people who have sexual trauma, or low desire feel like they really want to fix it. And there's a lot of stress around one, can I fix it? You know, what happens if I don't fix it?And I think the community offers this idea that, you know, even if you can't, for whatever reason, fix it, you can still have a happy life, you know, you can still have what you want you there's, you know, you are not broken. And I think that is a really powerful message. And I think that for some people, the shame, or stigma that can come with being ace comes with the idea that it will maybe lock you down. What if you identify as ace now, but later something changes? Does claiming a sexuality mean that you can, you can never change? I think people have said to me that it almost feels like resignation. And I think that's the wrong way to think about it. Because I think so many of our labels and identities are shifting, and if ace is the most accurate and helpful label for you right now. But tomorrow, you decide you're not ace, that's totally fine. Yeah, you know, some people have asked me, Oh, are you afraid that one day you're going to develop a lot of sexual attraction? And then it'll be embarrassing, because you know, of your book? And for me, you know, part of that I know, might be a little embarrassing, to be honest. But, you know, deep down, I don't think so. Because even if I discovered I wasn't ace, I think the greater messages of the book about how compulsory sexuality is bad about how we don't need to, you know, pathologize, low desire, if I became the horniest person alive tomorrow, I would still believe all of that.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah. Everything that you're saying right now, as we talk about claiming asexuality as an identity is reminding me of something that you wrote in your book, which is this question or these two questions that I think that I've been thinking about pretty much since I closed your book, which is how can we feel okay, claiming asexuality when so many factors make it easy to doubt? And when are we allowed to stop questioning? And like, Oh, my God, I like, these are such important questions. And they're also so difficult to answer because of the culture that we live in, which is so sexcentric.
Angela Chen
Yeah. I and I think, you know, the second question, when are we allowed to stop questioning, you can stop questioning right now. And you can be and you can be open, you know, if something changes and something changes, you know, I don't think it's good, either when people you know, deep down want to explore sexually or feel that maybe they're not ace and then, and I think this does happen, they don't want to betray the community. They don't want to be seen as you know, being accused of aceness being just a phase and so delimiting themselves and then other way that's not good. You can stop questioning whenever nobody else. So many people deep down kind of know the answer, I think, and they just feel like they have to keep questioning because other people tell them they have to. You know, there's a difference between other people being like, Are you sure? Maybe you haven't met the right person yet. You should try this new vibrator and you being like, I'm fine. I'm ace and then one day you meet someone you think, okay, let's explore this. You know, maybe those are so different. And I think people can tell that it feels different, but I think many people are afraid of give themselves the permission. To stop questioning even when they want to.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, because it's like, if you stop questioning, that means you're surrendering to the reality of your aceness, essentially, because I think so much of my own experience around like staying away from aceness because, you know, I've always sort of suspected that I was Ace and this was even when like, I thought that there the only definition of aceness was like someone who doesn't want to have sex. So like, I've kind of been on this journey trying to figure myself out and ace and asexuality was a word that came up a lot. And I think that like the reason why I never stopped questioning is because I always thought well, if you're asexual, that means that there's something broken and you have to fix it like that means that there's a there's a level of trauma that you haven't excavated yet, or there's a level of body positivity that hasn't that hasn't been healed yet or like there's a level of trust between you and your partner that hasn't been explored yet. And it's like this permission that I feel that you are giving me and everyone else in this who reads the book like to just what if you're okay as you are like what if you just stop searching for answers? What if you stop trying to fix yourself? What if you're not broken? That has been such a gift and such a blessing for me to internalize?
Angela Chen
Absolutely, and again, on you know, on the theme of fluidity, what if you stopped questioning for a little while? You know, I think a lot of people there you know, we think about identities as so fixed. You know, if you know, if you've stopped questioning now then you can't ever question it again. What if you just took a little bit of time and explored, you know, maybe I'm ace what would that mean? How do I feel about it? How do I feel not running to the same questions over my head? And then you know, I can go back to that, if I if I want to, or if I need to? Yeah, no, I really think the ace community is a joyful thing. You know, I think we talk a lot about compulsory sexuality, we talk a lot about the obstacles, the structural obstacles that aces face, but the end of the day, aces want everyone to feel that they are fine, no matter how they are sexually. Our goal is not necessarily to add more people to the ace community, though, like we said, I do think there are more aces out there it is to, you know, share these ideas that we don't need to stigmatize low desire, we don't need to stigmatize experiencing attraction in a different way. That, in fact, being ace comes with, you know, it can make you more creative, some of the people who are the most creative in thinking about relationships and family and what they truly want and what is but what is sex even what is desire are ace.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, that's very true. I mean, I think a lot about sensuality. And I think a lot about like, pleasure, like the many different ways we can experience pleasure and intimacy with ourselves and with other people that don't have to do with sex. And like, you know, that that creative aspect. I'm thinking about, like the time that I came out to my husband as ace, which was like, maybe, maybe less than a year ago, and it was the scariest fucking thing that I've ever done. Like it was way scarier to come out as ace than it was for me to come out as non binary. And I think because because of the pressure in our culture, because of this, like this, this idea that you're sexually liberated, if you have lots of sex, and you enjoy it, and you're very, you know, loud and proud about it, and to say that I'm asexual, and to also be able to embrace the nuances of my desire and the nuances of my sexuality was really terrifying. And it was also very freeing, because it honestly just makes sense.
Angela Chen
Absolutely. And I think that for me, there was this period in which I just started questioning if random things were because I was ace. So for example, you know, I've never been sex-repulsed. And just as a side note, there are people who are not ace and sex-repulsed, so just want to get that in there. Yeah, but I've never been sex-repulsed. And I've always been fine talking about sex and sexuality often in very graphic terms. And at some point in my life, I just decided that it just became less interesting to me. And then I had this little mini crisis where I was like, Is it because I'm ace, and then I realized, okay, it doesn't matter if it's because you're ace or not, there's plenty of people who are not Ace and who are sexually liberated who don't enjoy extremely graphic details of other people's sexual lives, you know. It was like I was setting this something up in my life where if something was because I was ace that it was bad, almost. And it took me a while to to get out of that, you know, sometimes times I'll look at music videos and there's none that are coming to mind. But sometimes music videos are just really objectifying women. And I'll find myself being you know, am I has aceness made me prudish somehow. But then I'll realize there's lots of people who, you know, object to, you know, such over sexualizing women in, in various videos and it's not an ace thing. And even if it was, the problem is actually the over, you know, the oversexualization, the problem is not necessarily a perspective from which I, from which I come.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, I mean, you're kind of speaking to like, my own internalized anxiety about this, like, is that because I'm ace or you know, even that, that notion of potentially being approved and how that is a bad thing. It's like, why? Like, why is it what, why is it a bad thing if you want to be private? Or why is it a bad thing if you don't want to talk about sex, or you don't want to have sex all the time? Like, really bringing those questions in, I think is so important.
Angela Chen
Absolutely. You know, I have a really complicated relationship with the word prude. You know, the word frigid. I think it's kind of funny, ya know, like, it's just so old fashioned to me that it doesn't and no one's ever actually used it against me, I've never thought of myself as bridges. So it doesn't really have much power. But there has long been the spectrum my mind of, you know, am I a prude? And I've really had to deconstruct What does it mean to be a prude? Why would that be bad, and I do think being, to me, what would be bad is to be very judgmental about other people's sexuality, to try to control their sexuality to not be able to, you know, bear any, you know, to be negative about what other people are doing. Like I, if that's what a prude is, I don't, I don't want to be a prude, frankly. But if prude just means that I don't want that sexuality is not that important to me. And I don't want to talk about it all the time. And I don't support, you know, objectifying and hypersexualizing women. I don't think that's bad.
Ev'Yan Whitney
This, this is making me want to ask—because I feel like we're touching on this a little bit—but I want to, like really make space in this conversation for the sexual liberation movement, and how I feel like, I mean, I think that the narratives in the language have changed a lot over the last few years around, you know, allowing folks who have different sexual experiences, whose you know, brain is ace that's kind of how I feel about it, like my brain feels very ace. Like, we're really starting to open up and create more space for folks who have a nuanced or more complex relationship with sexuality. But I wonder from your perspective, like, could we be doing better? You know, like, what, what does it look like to make space for aces in the sexual liberation movement?
Angela Chen
I think there is no sexual liberation without taking into account aces and compulsory sexuality. I mean, my definition of sexual liberation that I've been using for a while, is, you know, an attitude that celebrates consensual sex, and celebrates that people are making their own decisions, and does not pathologize people who are disinterested in sex or don't experience sexual attraction. And, you know, I think that in a lot of, you know, very progressive spaces, the desire to support sexuality after, you know, it's, but I'm thinking of feminist spaces, specifically, you know, after such a long history of women's sexuality being controlled, it's very reasonable and understandable that people would want to support that. But I do feel like there has often been this overcorrection where you feel like the only life that is worth living is the Sex and the City Life. You know, that you are a good feminist if you have a lot of sex. And once again, this is not just something that affects aces. I think just last week, BuzzFeed published an article and it was something like, Gen Z, women are skeptical of sex positivity. And these are women who I don't think are asexual, but they were saying things like, I felt like HBO taught me that I needed to have hookups. But I don't, I don't want them. And I resent, you know, I'm paraphrasing, but you know, I resent this idea that this is the kind of life that I should aspire to. And so I think, you know, whatever you are is okay, and experiment if you want, have as much or as little sex as you want. But this idea that there is one template for what a liberated woman looks like, and that it's lusty and that otherwise you're just pale. You know, wallflower. That's not true sexual liberation.
Ev'Yan Whitney
I 100% agree with that. I think even in my hesitance to claim asexuality as my own experience and even I mean, I'm reluctant to say this but it's true like my hesitance to to claim To help folks that I've worked with claim a sexuality in their own experience, there's always been that point for me that like, sexual liberation is about allowing people to be who they are the truth of who they are sexually without giving them shame for it, if that means that they want to be, quote, unquote prudish, if that means that they want to be celibate, if that means that they want to have seven partners, you know, like, it doesn't matter, as long as it's safe and consensual. And as long as folks are doing this from a place of like, feeling like this is who I am, this is what I want to do. And what I want to explore like that, to me is what sexual liberation is. And I think that the ace experience, is that, like, it's it really is that.
Angela Chen
I think so too. And I think there's also, you know, we can get so deep and meta, right? But so many people, as we've talked about who are thinking about asexuality, there's that question, oh, maybe it's, maybe it's not actually maybe I'm not naturally ace you know, maybe it was my upbringing, maybe was this or that? And I think you can even ask, okay, is this something you actually want to change? You know, maybe you're, maybe there's other types of liberation, that are more important to you. And figuring out these questions is not as important to you. I think that can be okay. That can be okay, too. You know, why is it that we focus so much specifically, on trying to raise desire levels? When we are full people who have so many facets in our lives, including the sexual facet?
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes, yes. All of this is so good. I mean, we've been talking about asexuality and the ace experience this entire conversation. And I kind of want to ask a very simple question, which is, how might someone know that they could be ace?
Angela Chen
I really think the best way is to just read other experiences of people who are ace, and or, you know, listen to them on podcasts, for example. Yeah, yeah. And see if that resonates with you. Because I think the danger is that you start thinking, Okay, do I experience sexual attraction? And then you think, maybe, or, you know, was that attraction? Was that not sexual? You know, you can go down this rabbit hole of these definitions, but I think what really helps people instead of, you know, focusing on that nitty gritty is, you know, people will say, this is how it was for me, and you'll say, Oh, I felt similarly. So I really think, you know, there's a lot of resources out there. There's a lot of blogs, there's, you know, a lot of writing, you know, does that resonate with you it does that feel like an experience that you've had before, don't treat yourself like this specimen, when you're trying to separate out what attraction is, you are a person who has experiences that might, you know, be similar to experiences of other ace people, I think, I always think that's the best way because I think, you know, especially because sexual attraction and sexual desire and all of us is still blurry. If you try to dissect things too much. I don't think that's the best place to start. Start seeing yourself holistically. And, you know, what have others experienced?
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, I mean, I, I think that your book, Ace is an excellent resource. I mean, the way that you talk to other folks who have just a broad and diverse experience of asexuality and desire and attraction, and you know, the intersections of those things with race and gender and sexual orientation, I think that your book is an incredible place for folks to start. If they're like, I think I might be ace, or, like, as you're saying, like this book, you know, I picked it up and I thought, like, Okay, this is gonna be, you know, for aces about aces. But like, I also feel like this book is for folks who are allosexual, because it really the questions that you ask, and the questions that you invite for us to ask ourselves about this very sex centered world that we live in and how we get pressured to perform and to be what we're not. I mean, I think that there's there's something very powerful about listening to the ace experience, even if you think that you're not ace because there's so many gems in here. I actually I want to kind of end with this quote. Like, if you could see my book it is like I like scribbled all over the margins, and I put a giant wow at this paragraph because it was just so good. You say the goal of ace liberation is simply the goal of true sexual and romantic freedom for everyone. A society that is welcoming to aces can never be compatible with rape culture, with misogyny, racism, ableism, homophobia, and transphobia. With current hierarchies of romance and friendship, and with contractual notions of consent. It is a society that respects choice and highlights the pleasure that can be found everywhere in our lives. I believe We've all this is possible. I love that.
Angela Chen
Yeah, thank you so much. And that is what I, I truly believe that because I, you know, the ace movement and the goals of asexuality, you don't separate them from, you know, the goals of fighting homophobia, there are so many aces, for example, are trans. So many aces are homoromantic, it's, it's all bound together. And at the same time, you know, so many people who are not aces, they keep saying, we feel this pressure, or they feel this pressure to keep performing. And so, you know, we will all rise together is my hope.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, that's my hope to and I think that the work that you're doing to bring this conversation, which I know has been happening for years, and years, and years and years, but the way that you brought this conversation around sex, desire, the ace experience, and really helping us to, like, think about and unpack these, like systems and structures that have been, like, intrinsically built into our sexual identities. I mean, this is such important work. And like, Angela, from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for writing this book. Because this book was a piece of liberation for me. And I will never forget the moment that I was in my apartment all by myself reading this book, and just like screaming out into the void, being like, Oh, my God, I feel so seen and also really scared, but also really excited and curious about who I am now able to be because I don't feel broken anymore. So thank you. Thank you so so much.
Angela Chen
Yeah, thank you so much for reading. And you know, thank you so much for this conversation.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah. So before I go, where can people follow you? Find you?
Angela Chen
Probably the best way to find me is on Twitter. And my handle is Chengela, C-H-E-N-G-E-L-A. My name is Angela Chen, you can guess how that handle came across.
Ev'Yan Whitney
It's really cute.
Angela Chen
Thank you. And right now yeah, I'm working on a proposal for another book. And you know, in my day job, I'm actually a science and tech journalist. So I think this one is going to be more about the philosophy of technology. And that makes us think about how to move through the world and how we optimize our lives and all of that, but it's very happy. So stay tuned.
Ev'Yan Whitney
I'm so excited. I love the way that you write. And I am so looking forward to this next book coming out and everyone please check out Angela Chen's book Ace. It's incredible. Thank you so much, Angela, for being on this. chat with me.
Angela Chen
Thank you.
Ev'Yan Whitney
So I have a question. Could you tell that I was like, seriously fangirling the entire time I was doing that interview? Because I was. I totally was. And I thank Angela Chen again, for her incredible work. And the doors she's opened up for me and for others to help us see our desire, our sexuality in a more holistic and unshaming way.
Since we're talking so much about desire today, and unpacking what desire is, and maybe some of the ways we've been taught that our desire or sexuality should look, I thought it would be cool to make this week sensual practice something to help you parse it out on your own, away from the shoulds of culture or society. And just getting really clear about what desire means and looks like for you. Sexuality and desire are really personal experiences. They're really quite nuanced and mutable. And as we found in this conversation with Angela, there is no right way to desire despite a lot of teachings that have told us otherwise. And so that has me wondering, What does sexual desire mean for you? Like when you say you desire somebody sexually, what does that mean? What sensations come up in your body, if any. And like if you were allowed to desire however you wanted to, without there being a “should” placed on you—like, you should want sex, you should have lots of sex, you should be attracted to sex and people in this particular way. If all of those shoulds were to fall away, how would you desire? Would you desire differently? And also, how would you not desire? Because I mean, it's totally okay. If you don't have sexual desire. It's not a requirement for being a good healthy human. I'm actually wondering in this moment, if me just saying that aloud to you made something release or spark up or let go in your body, because society puts a lot of pressure on us to be who we're not. And I know for me, when I heard myself say that I felt something release. It's like, Oh, I don't have to keep trying to be someone I'm sexually not? I don't have to keep trying to fix myself? Like it's okay for me to be as I am? For real? Wow. Wow.
Anyway, I'm going to leave you with a couple of questions that you can chew on about this. And the first one is, what stories have I been told about the way I'm supposed to desire? What images or tropes have I internalized, that have led me to feel like sexual desire can only look and feel a specific way? Where did those images or tropes come from? Where have I been pressured to be someone I'm sexually not? And in what ways have I been pressured to be someone I'm sexually not? And if I were to allow those pressures to fall away, if I were to allow myself to be honest with myself about my sexual desire, whether that's with sexual desire, or with only a little bit of sexual desire, or none at all, who would I be instead? If it resonates, give those questions some of your attention this week, maybe as journaling prompts.
And also please consider checking out Angela Chen's book Ace. I really, really feel like this is required reading for everyone, not just folks who are or think they might be ace. And in the meantime, take good care of yourself.
Sensual Self is created and hosted by me, Ev'Yan Whitney. It is edited and produced by Tribble. Music is by Melodiesinfonie from his song, Just Healing. For everything you want to know about this podcast, including previous episodes, show notes, transcripts, and resources. Go to evyanwhitney.com/podcasts. You can also follow the show on Instagram @sensual.self.
If you have a moment, I would love it if you rated and reviewed this podcast. It helps others find the show and as a result, it helps them uncover their sensual self. As for me, I'm on Instagram @EvYan.Whitney, and if you want to know more about me and my work, go to evYanwhitney.com.
And please check out my book, Sensual Self: Prompts and Practices for Getting in Touch With Your Sensual Body to preorder go to evyanwhitney.com/sensualself. Thanks so much for being here and for creating the space for yourself. I'll see you in the next one.