Episode 63: Sensual As a Mother (with Shan Boodram)
How do you balance your sensual self with being a parent? And what would you teach your kids about sensuality and sexual agency? In this one, Ev'Yan speaks with sexologist and educator, Shan Boodram, about what it's like for her to maintain her sensuality/sexuality as she is a parent for the first time. Shan talks about all the things she hopes to teach her kid from a sex education lens, what it looks like to dismantle old narratives of what being a mother "should" look like, and Ev'Yan shares their thoughts and feelings about her choice not to have children in this lifetime.
The full transcript of this episode is below.
LINKS:
Shan Boodram is an intimacy expert who has spent the past 15 years discussing sex, relationships and attachment on the Internet and in the media. Boodram is a best-selling author with her book The Game of Desire and was the host + EP of Quibi’s #1 daily show, Sexology with Shan Boodram. She is now serving as a sex and relationship expert on Peacock’s new dating show, Ex-Rated, hosted by Andy Cohen premiering soon. Boodram is an ambassador for AIDS Healthcare Foundation and WomensHealth.gov + a member of the American Sexual Health Association. Boodram is a certified sexologist with a B.A. in psychology and a diploma in print journalism. She lives in Los Angeles with her daughter Ryu and her husband Jared Brady.
Transcription:
Hey, welcome to Sensual Self. I'm Ev'Yan Whitney. And this is a space for you to slow down, tune in, heal and feel the sensations and pleasures of your sensual body. Thank you for being here.
. . .
Hey, y'all. Happy New Year. Maybe it's a little late to say that but who cares? Happy New Year. I hope that 2022 is treating you well, I hope that you are feeling lots of ease and safety in your body. I am so happy to be back in your ears after taking a little break from this podcast. I had a whirlwind a couple of months. As you know, I was releasing a book and going on a book tour, and then also navigating the holidays. And then I chose chaos and decided to get a puppy. So after all of that, your girl really needed to take a pause and rest. Which thank you by the way for allowing me the space and time to take care of myself. I am feeling so much more restored and clearer now that I've had this little break and I'm excited about what this year holds. I'm excited for what this year is going to reveal to all of us about our sensual selves.
Another thing I'm excited about: this chat that I'm about to share with you that I had with my girl, Shan Boodram. Shan is a sexologist, a sex educator, and host of the podcast, Lovers and Friends. And in this conversation, we talk about what sensuality and sexual identity looks like for her as a new mom. We talked about the ways she is challenging and redefining ages-old narratives of what motherhood should look like and also about how being a sex educator has shaped the way she is able to show up to parenting a kid. It's really interesting.
What I loved about this conversation—apart from just speaking to Shan in general because she's such a pleasure to chat with—is how real Shan was about parenting. Like, she says out loud a lot of things that I think parents or would-be parents feel and fear, but just don't have the courage to admit or name within themselves. And it was really interesting for me to hear her talk about things like mom guilt, because it challenged in real-time and you will hear my own narratives about what it means to have children. Like, you'll hear me talk about my choice to not have kids in this episode, which is something I haven't really talked about that much publicly. And as I walked away from this conversation, I found myself wishing that I had been exposed to conversations like this when I was growing up, because I think that if I had and if I had had different models of what parenting can look like, maybe I would be in a different place today when it comes to wanting to have kids.
Basically, Shan is a possibility model of parenthood for me, but not in this lifetime in the next lifetime. I also really, really loved what she shared when I asked her what she wants to teach her kid Ryu about her body and sensuality. So let's not waste any time you've been waiting long enough already. Let's get into this conversation, which I hope that you enjoy. And, you know, I'll pop back in towards the end to close us out and give you a practice to take with you for your sensual self.
. . .
Ev’Yan Whitney
Shan, thank you so much for being on my podcast.
Shan Boodram
Thank you so much for inviting me on your podcast and for allowing me to interview you for 17 of my podcasts. We've been talking for a long time today.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, yeah, we are in Shan's beautiful backyard deck situation outside so you might hear a little background noise.
Shan Boodram
A little rooster here and there.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, but it's all good. I'm so happy to talk to you. I've been wanting to have you on my podcast for a long time. And in particular, I'm really curious about what has been like for you to be a mom. And how that has affected, shifted, changed enhanced your ability to be in your sexuality, your body, your sensuality.
Shan Boodram
It has been-- I'll tell you that whenever I get asked this question, there's like two competing forces that are happening in me. My dad is such a very important person for people to meet to understand me. And my dad is downplay central. My dad's downplay central and say the unexpected thing. So that's my dad's like forte. So if someone says like, what's it like, having a kid who talks about sex for a living, my dad is going to downplay what I do to the maximum and then say something edgy, instead. And so I feel like a lot of times I get asked in interviews about like, how as being a mom changed you my automatic go to is like, fucking different at all, like, but that's because I'm like, What's the edgy and most downplaying-est response I can give. So that's like one thing that happens in me, because that actually is a part of my truth, to be honest with you. A big part of my truth is that I made a very big intention when I decided to conceive, because we were intentionally trying to conceive for six months before I was successful. So I thought that was a very important process for me, too, because for a long time, I didn't even want to have kids. So the fact that I had to really work for it, I think, actually worked out in my favor. But--
Ev'Yan Whitney
Can I ask what changed because I'm, I'm in the camp of not wanting to have kids either. I'm pretty firm on that. What What made you change your mind or..?
Shan Boodram
I read this book that's called The Art of Love. And in it, it basically said that there's, you know, many ways to be a mom. But there's two different camps in terms of motherhood approach. There's people who have children because they want a baby. And there's people who have children because they want an adult. And I recognize that I've never wanted a baby. But I do want an adult. Like, I do want to share all that I have to give somebody an opportunity to be an awesome adult. And I was like, that's how I feel. And then furthermore, I was with a partner who I just love so much. And I would love to see share what they have with somebody else. And we just gotten to a place in every area of life like financially and in our relationship and our connection with others. Like we have an incredible community, like I just I'm so grateful for what we have curated here in LA, and to call this place home. So it just felt like we have so much to share. But because I never wanted a kid, it was like I don't want a baby. But I want an adult. And I recognize the byproduct of having an adult is going through the process of nurturing a baby. So that was an aha for me of like, that's the kind of parent I want to be. And then that was like, oh, I want to be a parent.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Wow. That's so interesting. The idea of like, some people choose to have kids because they want to have a baby versus they want to have adult. I've never heard someone speak to that before.
Shan Boodram
Yeah. And I grew up with a mom who wanted a baby. And that was really difficult, I think on our relationship, because my mom wanted a kid and she was looking for a particular kind of love and the love a child could give. And so it was the sort of bizarre thing for me, because I actually couldn't even name it really, until that book of why was it that I was so close to my mom, as a kid, we were best friends. I used to say to my mom, I was in love with her. And I genuinely mean that I am in love with you. And all of a sudden, when I turned to a teen, there was a huge rift that kept growing between us. And I mean, like up until maybe like last year, kept increasingly growing. And then I recognized that it was because my mom never wanted an adult. And so as soon as I turned into a teen, I started to want space from her and want autonomy and have ideas that were not in line with what she wanted. She didn't know how to love me or how to be my friend or you know how to transition the relationship. And so it just kept getting more and more awkward. And I think maybe part of that experience has made me feel like I didn't want a kid but I just maybe wanted to go about it a different way.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, yeah. This podcast that I'm doing is, is it's about sex. It's about the body. It's also about sensuality. And I have so many questions about how your being a mom, now you're having a kid your having a kid might have shifted or just enhanced this experience that you have with your own body with your own sensuality. But I first want to ask, like, what does sensuality mean to you? Because I know, we're both sex educators. I'm sure we've heard lots of things about what sensuality is. I'm just really curious about like what your definition is.
Shan Boodram
you know, my honest answer right now is like you. I'm just looking at you. And I'm like, it's the way that you sit, it's tone of your voice, it's the jewelry you've chosen. It's the way that your skin shines. It's the way that you don't have nail polish on. It's like everything about I mean, I don't have it on either, but mine is like, I guess I do. I have this version of it, but it's like complete, being completely at home and at one with your sensory experience here on this planet. And I feel like It's that it's like it's presentness. Like when you're touching, when you're smelling when you're seeing, you're reflecting on the now. And so to be a sensual person is to be like completely present in the now. And because there is an abundance of things happening around you, it's like you're full. Because when you're experiencing everything at once there's a fullness about you. And when I look over at you, I'm just like, you feel like you're so full and present in this moment.
Ev'Yan Whitney
That's really lovely. Thank you for that reflection. I always am so curious about what people think when they see me but I actually really loved your reflection of what sensuality is, because that is like the essence of what I feel that sensuality is. And I know that a lot of people I've heard, particularly in my career, I've heard people use sensuality and sexuality interchangeably, like they're the same thing. And I, I, I've always been really curious about that. My suspicion is the reason why they use them interchangeably is that there's still so much fear around sex, saying the word sex that to say, sexuality. It's like "oh, you gotta say sensuality", you know, right. So I've seen that a lot in my work, where people will describe themselves like I am a sensual being, but they won't actually say sexual being so sensual feels like the the only thing that they can say that they're allowed to say,
Shan Boodram
Yes. A lot of people interchange intimacy with sex.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes.
Shan Boodram
And to me, intimacy just means a close personal bond.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes.
Shan Boodram
And that can take the form of romantic or sexual take the form of friendship can take the form of self. So like, to me, that's what that word means. But people use it interchangeably, because it's like, I had an intimate experience last night.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah.
Shan Boodram
"Oh you fucked?!" No. Yes. But no. Yeah, so I definitely have always made a very actually years ago, when I first started my YouTube channel, or restarted it, I had a series is called the sensual series. And it was just me noticing that I just really did not pay attention to like, my present sensory experiences. And how I showed up as essential person. I read this book that was called Mama Gena's School for Sensual Arts
Ev'Yan Whitney
Mama Gena.
Shan Boodram
Yeah, and that was a really big turning point for me, too, because it was like a sensual person finds pleasure in every moment. And then I started to redefine the word pleasure, because pleasure is also separate from sex.
Yes
It's fascinating. So I went on the view years ago, and I talked about wanting to advocate for women in particular, but for people to live and to seek a pleasure filled life. And the host who was DJ Tanner, I think, I don't know her real name. But you know, one of the Full House people was like, "I have a problem with what you're presenting. You're telling people out there that just go out there and get pleasure, just go get pleasure." And like, you know, like, "you have responsibilities in life you've got people to attend to," and I was like, "Well, why is your pleasure in conflict with what you have to do?" Or what what other people need of you? Like, why is you feeling good in conflict with you being a provider or a mom or anything else? But we have this notion that we have to choose at all times. Right? And then choosing pleasure choosing sensuality is choosing selfishness, versus self fullness, though. I think in general, like that there's a lot of confusion around these concepts that people marry together because they're trying to whip past them.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah.
Shan Boodram
Which is really a betrayal of what these words are trying to help you to do.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, I I really appreciate this conversation. Because I, I have been trying to discern sexuality from sensuality. Like, throughout my whole career, I think I started from this place of wanting to do sex education. But that felt really lofty to me because I was in my own process around sexual shame, sexual healing, sexual trauma. And so sensuality felt a lot easier for me to grab on to, because it's like, it's just being with your body. It's just allowing your body to feel and not just feel pleasure, but also feel the other things that may not be very pleasant, you know, and like just that realness and that rawness of being able to sit in space with your body in that way. That felt like such a beautiful gateway to get to the sex, the sexy parts and to get to the sexy pleasure. I don't think that my personal philosophy is that we can't have sex without there being sensuality involved in it. Like there's just no, I mean, I'm sure there might be some people who have managed to have sex without sensuality, getting involved. That's not my ministry. And I wouldn't prefer that because I feel like I feel like the best sex that I've ever had is from that place of having all of my senses engaged, being completely present with my partner or with myself, and how that presence just creates more possibility and potential for for feeling and intimacy and receiving and giving and it's just it's beautiful.
Shan Boodram
Well, can you have a sensual experience if you're just really tapped into one of your senses? Because that by nature is what sex is right? Like, if nothing else, you're experiencing physical sensations. I mean, for some people you're not experiencing that you're experiencing, just touch in general. Like the joy of being touched and paid attention to through touch by someone else. So at the bare minimum, isn't it just naturally sensual?
Ev'Yan Whitney
That's so interesting, because I feel like, I feel like the sex that I have every single one of my senses not even all five of them, like probably all 20 of them are being, you know, played with aroused, interacted with when it comes to sex. I think that that. Yeah, that's just, that's just the way that it is for me. That's weird, huh. Interesting.
Shan Boodram
I think you're right. I think that people, like anything else in life, like I would not that there's a competi--, you know, because sliding scale factor here, but I would consider you to be a more central person, like I would look up to you as an aspirational icon in this space. That isn't to deny my own sensuality, it's to say, like, there are levels of getting to this space where you can be with your body, which I believe Oh, my gosh, when you just said that was a beautiful simplified, put that in the Webster definition of what sensuality is, like just being with your body, which can really be oversimplified. But again, like you just said, the more that you break that down, like there's millions of iterations of what that means to do that. And if you're experiencing two out of those a million, you're still experiencing sensuality to some degree.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Right? Right. So one thing that I've heard from folks that I've spoken to in the past, whether they were clients of mine, or students who are moms, they've said to me that having children has been a really beautiful experience, but it also takes them out of their own body. It's like, it's like their body doesn't become theirs anymore. It becomes a mechanism for feeding, a mechanism for nurturing. It doesn't-- they feel sort of disconnected and disembodied, and I wondered, if you have any experience with that? And if you have, like, how have you moved past that?
Shan Boodram
I think, being really aware, I mean, this is the benefit of the work that we do, just the same way that I'm sure if you were an accountant, you'd have great credit, because you have an awareness of the system, and you're mindful of the common mistakes and pitfalls. And before you enter into something, you know, what's likely to happen, and you build a plan from there. So I really feel very fortunate that I do the work that I do, because it's allowed me to navigate these spaces in a very seamless way. I mean, the part of motherhood that I'm struggling with a lot is how time consuming it is. I don't think I really I've never been great at time management to begin with. So this is already compounding that issue. So I'm saying that to say that I believe that a lot of people shy away from motherhood because you hear these common tropes about the experiences, it doesn't have to be that way. It's I think, motherhood exaggerates, you know, it exaggerates whatever work that you haven't done yet. Because you just have less. You have less you, you have less time, you have less consciousness, you have less sleep. So whatever you already were lacking is going to be exaggerated through this experience. And whatever you haven't been planning for having been putting work into, you're just going to feel that inadequacy so much more because more is called of you. But because I think sex and sensuality and feeling sexual, even separate from being having sex, just feeling like a sexual person is so important to me, I prioritized that in my pregnancy, you know, I literally bought lingerie, like for all sizes. So I made sure that I looked in the mirror and was like, she's hot as fuck, like, I want to have sex with myself. I prioritized masturbation, I prioritized self-pleasure, even when I was preparing for birth, like I did, like perineum exercises. And I used that as also a sex toy. So I would use that in conjunction. So this thing that was kind of not that pleasurable of like stretching out the perineum, so that it would not tear, I also turned that into like a sensual sexual experience myself. So I was like aware of what I wanted to do to ensure that I came out of it. And I looked in the mirror, and I was like, Oh, I know that person. And I also was aware that I wanted to get back to looking the way that my body did before pregnancy, because I very strongly identify with that version of my body. And I didn't want to lose that version of my body. And I'm somebody who had a baby quite late, like I had a baby at 35. So in a medical sense, I was like an elder mom. So I also knew that I couldn't take it for granted that like it wouldn't just happen for me. I had to be very intentional about these things. And I did that even you know, sex with my partner. Like, we had conversations about it the entire way. And even after I gave birth, and I felt like they were not relating to me sexually. I pressed the pause button, and was like, I'm fine as fuck what's going on here. So I didn't allow for like I didn't go with the current. I was always constantly bucking up against it to try to shape the experience that I know, I thrive the best in.
Ev'Yan Whitney
What do you think that you being a sex educator gave you in terms of this experience of having a kid? Because it seems like, it seems like your experience of being a mom and being in this body and being sexual, like, I just don't hear people talk about that aspect of being a parent, you know. And so I'm wondering, like, what has the sex education piece, being a sexologist, how has that helped you sort of like, I guess, form or express who you are in a deeper way? Does that make sense?
Shan Boodram
Yeah, I think because we've got practice with the taboo, and having discussions about the taboo, like this is already an area that so many people live in such deep shame. And they're so afraid to admit their inadequacies, because you never hear anybody else mentioned them. That's because no one's talking about it, period. So I think with motherhood, it could probably easily get into the same box of everyone's so afraid to admit that they don't know what they're doing. They're so afraid to admit that they don't feel happy, they don't feel fulfilled, because there's so much taboo with even saying those things out loud. But I guess because I already have practice, in a space that's difficult to have these dialogues in, it's so much easier for me to ask for help. It's I feel it's a lot easier for me to admit where I'm not great, and not to feel like that's a reflection on who I am as a mom as a whole. So I feel like as much I mean, my the knowledge I have isn't helping my nine month old baby, you know, she's not coming to me with questions about her body yet. So it's not directly like engaging or impacting my, you know, ability to be a mom to her yet. I know in the future, of course, it will. But I think currently what it has given me more than anything else is one, the permission to prioritize my pleasure. I think that helps me be a better mom in general, I talked about this in a video where I had to get to a place where I had to talk to my mom guilt directly. Because the mom guilt is sitting with me right now of like, oh, it's been a long time, and you should be inside like she needs you. But I also know that if I spent the entire day with her watching pokeo, crawling around on the ground, feeding her snacks wrestling with her. At the end, I'd look in the mirror and not feel good about myself, you know what I mean? Like, not feel like I enriched myself. So instead, it's like giving myself the space to do what enriches me, so when I come with her, come together with her, I'm excited, I'm full of life. And I have so much more to give like I'm my cup is full. And now I'm like, let me give you some of that. So I think in general, giving myself permission to still be sexual and sensual, while acknowledging that while that is inherently something that has to do with self, it benefits my child, ultimately That's a long ass answer but...
Ev'Yan Whitney
No, no, that's really beautiful. I mean, I am, I'm sort of like a fly on the wall here because like, I don't have kids, I don't plan on having children that's not in my, in my trajectory of how I want my life to go. And so I but I've always wondered like, what would it look like for me to be a parent? And how might that relationship be? And would I lose aspects of my sexual self or my sensual self? One of the reasons why. And this is not where I thought the conversation was going to go. But we'll just we'll just let it go there. One of the reasons why I don't want to have children is because I feel that I would be a bad mom, and not like bad in the sense of like, you know, I wouldn't take care of my kid, I think that I would because of my own wounding and my own core wounds around the trauma that I have, I think that I would be a mom, that would be crawling on the floor all the time, giving snacks like 100, I think I would lose myself to my kid. And I think I don't, I don't want to say that I I wouldn't have the power to change that. I think that I would. But I think that it would be so difficult for me. Like you just naming the fact that like you're sitting here with me, we've been recording like pretty much all day. And you have that feeling of like, Oh, my kid is upstairs. I'm like, Oh, wow, I would feel that. And I don't think that I would be able to sit here and talk to you. Because I think that that feeling would be so overwhelming and so powerful that I would probably be like, You know what, I don't need to do my work. Like I'm just going to be and I think that's because that's how my mom was like, my mom was very much like, my, like, my career is Mom. You know, and so I want to give myself credit in the sense of like, you know, I, I know myself well enough to know that. Like, if it's something that I really wanted, I would absolutely move through that. But that's one of the fears that I have that I think that I would lose my identity to being a parent.
Shan Boodram
It's fascinating because as you said that you were afraid that you'd be a bad mom. In many people's definition you just defined what a good mom is. Right like a good mom is somebody who gives up everything who sacrificed herself who devotes their time we should make that shift. And that is a good mom. But I'm a good mom too, and I don't do those things. So I think we had a dialogue on my podcast just before this about your relationship, and how you redefine what a good relationship looks like for you on your terms. And it was realizing that doing all the things that would actually indicate that you're not in a good relationship, actually was what made your relationship thrive. So I think for me is acknowledging that doing a lot of the things that maybe people would look at, like, oh, like, you must not be a devoted, like, I am, for example, a very infuriating, infuriating mother for people to be around if they're very concerned with safety. Because I'm just not. I prioritize exploration and freedom, independence. I prioritize her learning for herself, like Ryu knows how to go down backwards off of furniture, because she's gone forwards many times, and I been like, you're gonna figure it out that you can't go face forward overstuff. And if I continuously correct you, and I'm always around you on furniture, I'm sure you learn eventually, but I just prioritize a different kind of parenting. So I had to also again, like, I think, because I've got to a space in my relationship, where I'm like, what's a good relationship to me is indicators of being a bad partner to other people. That's okay. Because on my vantage, and in my world, it's amazing over here. I think because I did that already. I did that work there. It's easier for me to allow myself to do that work here. And to identify that being a good mom probably looks like being a bad mom to a lot of people. And I'm okay with you thinking that. I'm okay with you not wanting to model. What I want to model for you is freedom of choice and freedom of expression and options. I want a model for you that there's not a one size fits all way. But I also acknowledge that if my way is your nightmare, that's okay. Your way might be my nightmare. But I would never enter into your home and make a suggestion for you if you felt like you were full and in sensual expression and present in your role and how you want to show up in that way. And obviously, of course, when you're talking about the life of another life that depends on you, there's limits to that, because she's not autonomous. And you know, I'm in charge of protecting her. So there are limitations to what I'm talking about in this kumbaya free, like do as you wish world because obviously, her safety and her well being come first. And there are hard lines around what that looks like.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, yeah. I think for me, like, there's there yeah, there's a lot in here around. How many more things that I have to like work through. Yes, in order for me to get to a place of confidence and comfortability about that being a choice. And I think that I'm at a place where I'm like, I've got so much other work to do, before I can even think about that. And I know that that's not a thing that a lot of people I mean, I know of a lot of people were just like, I just want to have a kid, like it doesn't really matter where I'm at, like where what sort of frame of mind I'm in like, that is my destiny, I'm going to be a parent. And for me, I'm like, if I'm going to be a parent, I'm probably not. But if I'm ever going to be like, I want to make sure that I am going to be the best version of myself, for myself. And also for my kid, you know.
Shan Boodram
There are two things in this world that I just do not think you should be pushed into doing because there's so much work, if you don't go in it completely autonomous and arms up and excited for it, it is so difficult to be good at them. I think that's school and parenting. I think I'm also back in school right now. And I'm again in my like late 30s at this point. And it's such a very different experience from being in school, even in my early 20s. Just because, like I'm sitting here listening to somebody talk about shit that I don't necessarily care about. And I'm paying for this. And I don't want to be here. My parents told me I had to be here. So my attitude is just not going to be the same. I'm not going to treat the educational environment the same. So being an adult learner is such a drastically different experience. I know exactly why I'm there. And every time that I want to skip doing my homework or not read a chapter. I'm like, but you chose to be here. Nobody asked you to be here. Nobody pushed you into doing this, like you volunteered, you're paying your money, you got to find the value in it. I think that being a parent, so much of the same thing, because it's so time consuming and so much work. And it really is all of those things. And every time that I get to a space where I feel overwhelmed, I get to remind myself joyfully that I came into this completely by my own choice and my own volition. Yeah, and I think that's actually improved it so I never understand people that try to pressure people into those choices like, those are really things to decide for yourself. And trust me, the world's gonna be completely fine, Ev'Yan, if you don't if you don't have kids, we're okay. You know, I mean, like, don't let anybody else feel like their livelihood or their well being is going to be negatively impacted by your choice. Yeah, like, so girl. Yeah, I'm sorry, excuse me.
Ev'Yan Whitney
No, no, no girl is fine. We're black people, soo include girl as AAVE, so you're good.
Shan Boodram
I think that if that's where you're at, be in that space. Like, I loved being 33 and not wanting kids. And it's interesting, because someone said to me, every time I talk to you, there's an evolution. Because the last time I spoke to you was years prior, you didn't want to have kids. And now you have one. I was like, I saw that evolution is an evolution is an indicator that I'm like becoming more civilized, right? Or, like, more... I guess I know the word. What how would you define that? Like, what is evolution? It's...
Ev'Yan Whitney
I mean, I would say that evolution is like, you are in one place, and then you end up in a totally different place.
Shan Boodram
But it's better.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah.
Shan Boodram
Right. Like,
Ev'Yan Whitney
right,
Shan Boodram
you were crawling, and now you're walking, like you've evolved, like you've improved. And I did not improve the version of me that didn't want a kid was the best version of me. And I love that version of me. And I would gladly make out and mutually masturbate with that version of myself, because I'm so thankful for the decisions that they made and for the self awareness to say No, not right now. While I'm also grateful for the place that I'm in now, but like, there's no part of me that looks back at my other self and says, Oh, if only you know, like, I don't scoff at that version of myself. So I think like, yeah, like sitting in, and I think more people in general should feel celebrated. And really being mindful about this decision making process, but also owning whatever it is that feels right for you.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, yeah. What would you say to people who are wanting to be more in their sensuality and in their pleasure as a mom, and maybe they haven't, as a parent? And maybe they haven't-- they don't, they don't have models of what that could look like. Maybe because their own parents took a different route. Or maybe they don't have the kind of background education, like you and I do regarding sex education, and like really getting into the mix of all those taboos, like, I'm just thinking about folks who are like God, I want to feel like myself. And I want to express myself, and I want to have a whole self identity practice ritual with myself on a daily basis. That isn't just this one aspect of me, like, I just wonder if you have any... I don't know, tips.
Shan Boodram
I would love to give tips. But I also need to acknowledge the massive amounts of privilege that I have in my life that have allowed me to prioritize my sensuality, in a way that a lot of people just literally wouldn't have the time to do.
Ev'Yan Whitney
I appreciate you saying that. Because that's, that's real. It is so real.
Shan Boodram
I think, even with all the help, we have someone that Jared's brother works with us full time. So nine to five, he is here just to like help with whatever it is that we need. And sometimes it's making a meal is taking the trash out. Because those are real decisions. Like when you have another life that literally she is up, she sleeps maybe 4 hours a day, the rest of the time, she needs full attention. Not like I'm sitting in the same room with you, and I'm doing on the computer and you're doing your thing, I literally can do nothing else if I'm with the baby. And it'll be that way for a while until, you know, she gets on the iPad, which you know, I had judgments about parents and iPads. But now I'm like, I can't wait until there's an off button. You know what I mean? Like you could do something else other than like, because if I'm not looking at her, she's trying to harm herself. So I have to give full attention, you know, all the time, and she requires that stimulation and she benefits, I see how she thrives from it, so I give it to her, but you have to make a decision between like, am I going to have one less hour of sleep or have sex with my husband? Am I going to have one less hour of sleep? Or am I going to make food rather than ordering in something that is gonna make me feel like shit? Because it's fast. But do I want it? What if I'm weighing things out, right? Because making a good healthy meal makes me feel good. But I lose an hour of time. Where I can use that hour to go work out so that I enjoy my body more. I could use that hour to get my feet done, which I don't know if you can see my heels. They're really bothering me. I've got to work on that. Like every time like I have the kind of heels that if I walk you hear me. Right, like if I get into the sheets you hear me. That's bugging me. I have to prioritize it today like I know I do have to prioritize that. But I think that you have to make those like real decisions and because I have the advantage of resources community, a partner, I have a lot more wiggle room there. Some people like there's genuinely there's no additional time. And if there isn't, then that's where you have to meet yourself where you are, I think I was in a position to challenge myself to be where I wanted to be. And so it's a lot simpler for me to make those shifts. But again, I think because sex is such a big part of how I show up in this world, I assume that even if I was a single parent, you know, who didn't have a lot? If I did have an extra half hour, that's how I would invest my time. Yeah. So it's really a matter of investment and choices.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, yeah, I think about that a lot. Because I, I have heard from many parents that like they're unable to have the kind of sex that they want to have or be in their relationship with themselves, that they want to have or interact with their bodies or be like, still enough in their own bodies to like, feel into what their bodies need. Because, and this doesn't even just happen with parents. I mean, it happens with all of us, because we live in a world that is so demanding, and we have so many responsibilities and needs. And it can be really difficult to feel like you have that time. But it's so important. Like, there's always more time like you can always yes, even if it is like five minutes, I like to think about that, like I'm in this really interesting process where I'm trying to like be with my body more in silence, which is really difficult for me, because I'm like, I don't really want to be with my body in silence, there's a lot of stuff that goes on in it, a lot of thoughts, a lot of anxiety. And for me, the first thing that I think of is like, Okay, I gotta get to the point where I can sit in meditation for an hour. But like, we can go for three minutes. Like, it doesn't have to be an hour, if I can spend three minutes intentionally breathing into my belly. Like that is a practice. And that can be enough. And so I just wonder if there are other folks who can also take from that as well. Like, it doesn't have to be an hour long, you know, passion, pit of pleasure.
Shan Boodram
I would say the basic things I did that I think were vastly the water bottle I have right here, I have a gallon water bottle so that I'm literally forcing myself to hydrate all day, and I never think I'm thirsty. And I don't have that option. I'm so much better when I have tons of water in my body. I know a had experience with that, especially during pregnancy when your body's working overtime. And that's one simple thing I would say buy yourself a big ass water bottle. Genuinely that made a difference, a big impact for me. I think too like, I use YouTube workouts. I don't ever work out more than 20 minutes a day, I do this 20 minute cardio one or I do seven minutes or eight minutes of ABS. Obviously, when I was pregnant, I did not do that. But like in postpartum like feeling strong in my core feeling good in my body. Feeling fit is important to me. So I didn't have tons of time. A really huge one that we say is I need to find ways to incorporate my kid into my wellness and into my even my sensual experiences. So for us, we bring her to restaurants. If she's screaming, I don't care. I'm there for me. I'm there to feel like an adult. I'm there to be, you know, out. I want to dress up. And is it perfect with a baby? No, but like you're coming along. I work out with my baby. If you follow me on Instagram, you know that like she's always in the deck with me during that time. And like, Is it perfect, because she's distracting? Like, no, it's not. But I know that if I can incorporate you into these parts of my life, I'm likely to not do them. And when I don't do them, I don't feel like the best version of me. Even like in the food that we eat, like, it's not like to the question you asked about, like, how's things different, you know, from having a baby, I really fight as much as I possibly can, to not make it that different. Like even, this is gonna be a joke that can be taken out of context, but let me just go with that. But my husband was like, you have a really weird fetish, with like making out in front of the baby. And like, it's not that it's just that I want to make out with you and the babies here. So I'm not trying to separate it and be like, Oh, can't do that. Like, if I'm looking across at you, and I think that you look really hot right now. Like I want to engage with that, you know, she's nine months, so don't get me wrong as she gets older, we'll find age appropriate ways. But I, you know, I'm probably gonna still walk around naked on my baby. Like, there's just gonna be the least amount possible that I can separate you know that you become a part of my life, rather than my life gets redefined by your life. I think we'll both benefit.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Wow, that's beautiful. That's radical to me. That's so radical, because it's so different from the way that I was raised. Like my mom was like, very compartmentalized in the way that like, Mom. Wife. It was very, very separate. So, and honestly, I think you're like one of the only friends that I have that has the kid. A lot of my friends don't have children. They've either made the decision not to or they're just like not in a place to even consider that. And so I'm always really fascinated to have conversations like this, because it helps me to see like, what's possible.
Shan Boodram
I'm smiling because I'm like did you just call me your friend?
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, girl, we're friends. I mean, we've only met each other twice in person. But I mean, yes, it is what it is. We're friends.
Shan Boodram
I do feel that.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Okay, that's good.
Shan Boodram
I'm making intentional eye contact right now.
Ev'Yan Whitney
We're friends. Yeah, like, I just think it's really important to have like, conversations like this, to see what's possible. And it also helps me to know that, like, there isn't just like, one way to do it, you know, or like two ways or three ways. There's like, many different ways. And I love what you're talking about here about really prioritizing yourself. Like you having a kid didn't change the way that you are focused on yourself and the way that you care about yourself. And that's just not a narrative that I hear at all, you know?
Shan Boodram
Yeah, maybe that's for good reason. I don't know, gonna find out, I might have a terrible child. And we're like, that did not work out. So it's kind of like to be continued. I like that aspect of things. You know, like, I know that right now, I have a really happy kid who's developing and who I enjoy and who people enjoy, and I think enjoys their time on this planet. But I'm not gonna sit here and tell you that I'm doing it the right way. I'm just, you know, doing it the way that I feel like I can show up the best as myself. And as a result of that in community with other people.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah. What do you hope to teach Ryu about her body? And her sensuality?
Shan Boodram
Oh, I mean, I think what's you know, what's so crazy? How simple that question is how I've like I don't have a concrete answer.
Ev'Yan Whitney
It's okay, if you don't.
Shan Boodram
But I love that to reflect on in silence for a second.
Shan Boodram
There's a license plate in, I'm from Canada. And Ontario's license plate is "yours to discover". And that's what like comes to mind for me like yours to discover. This is your body. This is your experience. These are, this is your genitals that is your clitoris like, you do with it. And you discover and you play and you experiment on your terms. And I have a saying that I live by which is like "I own it. They love it." Because I think for a long time I lived in a they love it, so I own it world. Waiting for other people to validate something before I'm like, Yeah, I like it, too. Rather than being like, no, like, what works for me and what makes me the best version of myself will naturally align with what other people want for me, because other people, if they're healthy for me should just want me to be the best version and expression of myself. And that comes to trust to like trusting that my natural instincts aren't bad. And so I think that a lot of what I experienced in my growing up was not yours to discover. It was I'll tell you when it's okay. I'll tell you if it's okay. Wait, don't trust yourself. What you want to do and what you should do are not aligned. And I think that there's so much I could learn from my five year olds, and be honest, my earliest memories, but you know, for my five year old version of my body and what it was meant to do on my relationship with it. I think that there was a lot of I got in trouble a lot for the way that I sexualized myself or the way that I interacted with myself even sensually. I wish that I had that yours to discover mantra.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Hmm, that's beautiful. I love that. I wish I had that too. Like five year old, maybe. I mean, I think about her a lot. I think about her a lot and the ways that she wasn't allowed to express herself or in feel into her body or being discouraged against feeling into your body or the emotions that come up in them. So I love that, that notion of yours to discover. I've been doing a lot of like inner child work lately, and just like therapy and trauma resolution, and I think that I'm going to give baby Ev'Yan that. Yeah, that's a beautiful mantra. Thank you for sharing.
Shan Boodram
Shoutout to Ontario.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah. Shan it's been really good chatting with you. Before I go, is there anything that you want to say? Any questions that you would like for me to ask that I haven't asked
Shan Boodram
You know what that always brings up? You know when you're in school, and the teacher is like anyone have any questions, and you don't and then you're like, fuck, if I want to get a good grade, I better come up with something.
Ev'Yan Whitney
No, there's no right or wrong.
Shan Boodram
Well, I know you're probably do this in this episode. But I would love to hear more reflections on you around, choosing not to Mother. I think that that's such a I wish I talked about it more in that space. It's so fascinating to me like looking back. A lot of the times I get criticized for vulnerability in the present. Like, why are you sharing this? Why are you saying this out loud? You don't have to talk about this. This can be a private conversation. And then it's never it's interestingly enough, because people think that when you share, it's gonna get used against you. But it's actually the opposite, that when I look back, I'm like, I wish I leaned more into my truth then. Like, I would have loved to have heard from myself. And I can also listen back to old interviews or watch old videos, and see where I'm editing myself, because I'm not sure if the way that I feel is okay. So I love the fact that there's someone like yourself, who is sensual. And who is doing the work and who challenges themselves to know themselves who was identifying as somebody who doesn't want to have kids. So I feel like there's so much reflection in that, that I would just love to hear, or the 33 year old version of myself would love to have heard.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, I mean, honestly, you know, I haven't really talked about this publicly. I mean, my work has been so focused on sex, and I just, I think people have asked me in my career, like, when you guys gonna have babies, you'd make such cute babies, which, by the way, we totally would make really beautiful babies. But like, I don't know, yeah, I just never talked about it. No one's ever really asked me. But I'm happy to just like, talk a little bit about it here. I mean, we're already on the subject. So maybe this will be like, Okay, everyone, if you want to hear my answer about whether or not I want kids, listen to episode, whatever. Um, yeah, I, I, I've heard from people who said that they knew that they wanted to be parents from the time that they were really young. And that was never my experience. I played with dolls. But that was... that was more like, sort of playing house. You know, it wasn't like, I identify as this, you know, Cabbage Patch Kids, Mom, it was more like, I'm playing like, we're playing and I've heard from other people that for them, it wasn't playing. It was like, I'm imagining myself as being a parent, and like holding this baby and nurturing this baby. And that never really was it for me, it was more like make believe. And then the moment that we were done playing me and my sister, the doll would go on a shelf, and I didn't have that identity around being a mom. And I also never had a desire to have kids. Yeah, it just, it wasn't something that was like a pull or a nudge. And for me, you know, being the sensual, you know, body based person that I am, like, I really go based off of what my body is saying, I go based off of like, what my hungers are, and I just never, I've never had a hunger to be a kid. Now I've or to have a kid. Like, I have definitely felt pressurized. I've definitely felt like I'd been in relationships where there was like, Okay, we're in love. And eventually we'll get married. And eventually we'll have a kid like that was sort of like the escalator of success in terms of an adult. So I was definitely on that ride. But then when I realized that I get to choose, like, I get to create the kind of relationship that I want with myself, with my partner, the kind of life that I want to live. And knowing that I had that option, I was like, sweet, I'll take it like I don't I don't think that I want to have children. I'll be a bomb ass auntie. For some for some little, little human in the world. I would love that opportunity. I'm not around babies enough to like, flex that muscle. But yeah, I've never, I've never had the desire or the nudge. I've been curious. But that curiosity has never turned into let's give it a try. Because I know-- I just-- I've seen so many people play with having kids. It's just like, Yeah, let's make baby sure. I just take this so seriously, maybe it's because I'm a Virgo. And like, I want to think about all the things before I make a decision. I just I would not be able to take that decision lightly. And it's not one of those things where I'm like, I'm curious about it. Let's give it a try and see what happens. I'm like, No, I want to like make sure that if I'm gonna do this, I'm 100% committed, I'm not gonna fuck my kid up, which is like inevitable. We're always I think just in the world that we live in can't have a perfect kid. But there's that the other aspect of that, that I want to be really honest about is that like, I am very selfish. Like, I love my time. I love my partner. I don't want to share my partner with another child. I'm worried about what that dynamic would do between us. Again, I think we would be able to work through it. We would move past it. I think we would find ways to make it work for us. But there's this part of me that's like, I don't know, if I want to be bothered, you know, like, I'm really happy to be my own person. And I'm really grateful as well to have met a partner that wants the same, you know, like we're both very much mutually in agreement about not having kids. And we actually made the decision pretty early on in our relationship, I want to say within like, like five years of us being together, that he got a vasectomy, because I didn't want to be on birth control for the rest of my life. And, yeah, I'm so happy about that. I don't have any regrets. And I think I, I've waited, I've waited for that, like biological clock to kick in. It's something that I've heard people say, like, you hit 30, you're gonna feel it once you hit 33. Once you hit 30, and I'm still like, I don't have I don't have any nudges, or desires. If it were to come up, I would, I would think about that and see where I'm at. But I'm not going to be like my biology. I don't honestly believe in the biological clock. I've done some research on it about how the biological clock is just a term that a journalist made up to describe something else out of context. So I don't even believe that a biological clock exists. But I do believe that there is social pressures that are put on us that like you hit 30 your eggs are freezing up. So yeah, that's kind of it.
Shan Boodram
Thank you for sharing that.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Thank you for asking that question are inviting me to explore that. Because again, like no one, that's not a question that I get asked often,
Shan Boodram
No, and everything you were saying I was like facts. All of that. You know what I mean? Like I just as somebody who has a kid, I'm just like, there's nothing that you said, I'm not completely in line with.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah. And I have a lot of respect for parents, I have a lot of respect for the amount of hard work that it takes to raise a human. Especially in this world that we live in. I mean, God, I just when I see people having kids, I just I have so much love and compassion for them, because I know that it's not an easy job. It's very hard. You know? And I think that I would be, I think that I would be up to the task should that happen. I just don't want it to happen. I'd rather do something else. I'd rather macrame, like I'd rather macrame than have a kid. I'd rather eat chocolate cake and have a kid I don't know.
Shan Boodram
Chocolate cake's pretty bomb. And I think that that's, you know, it's interesting, because we were talking about that in terms of, we're talking about the topic of male vulnerability. And this guy put it in the way that I really appreciated of like, do I acknowledge that I probably should get to a space where I'm more comfortable talking about my feelings. Sure. But right now, I'm building a deck. That's what I'm doing. And I want to do that. So like, is a part of me that thinks that maybe there's an iteration of me that could work. Like, is there a part of me like that, um, I think a big part of being comfortable in your identity is being comfortable in the lack of permanence. You know what I mean? When you get to a place of like, I feel really good about saying this today. I also am not going to be embarrassed if in three years, I feel-- my life it looks very different, right? I'm not gonna be like, Oh, my God, like, I know I said that. But I have to go back on it. It's okay. You know, but I'm right now, I want cake instead. I mean, like, that's what I'm doing. I'm eating cake. I'm being sensual. rebirthing, a podcast. I have a book coming out in a few days. I have a relationship that I am celebrating and reforming. I have friends and community. I'm in the city. I want to be in like, that's what I'm doing right now. Bitch, I'm booked and busy.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, I mean, and that's liable to change, you know, and like, that's, that's the thing about being human is that like, nothing is set in stone. I, we may have a conversation in two years. And I may say "Shan I'm having a little" I mean, you never know,
Shan Boodram
Yeah, you might have adopted my kid in 2 years. I might be like, I didn't like it and you're like, I'll take your kid. That might be the conversation and I'm open for that adventure.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Imagine a joint podcast where we talk about that.
Shan Boodram
Yeah,
Ev'Yan Whitney
That whole venture. Oh, my God.
Shan Boodram
She did take to you right away. She waved.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes. I was very surprised by that. Especially because I was wearing a mask.
Shan Boodram
Yes.
Ev'Yan Whitney
So she could see like, you know, my friendly eyes. So that's good.
Shan Boodram
She's very slow to wave usually.
Ev'Yan Whitney
What's her sign?
Shan Boodram
November 12.
Ev'Yan Whitney
So she's Scorpio?
Shan Boodram
Yeah,
Ev'Yan Whitney
Aw, a little Scorpio, baby.
Shan Boodram
Yeah. It usually takes a while to like, wave. I think it's more about motor skills. Just like the concept of like, oh, this is what a greeting is, but she waved at you like really, really early.
Ev'Yan Whitney
That was really sweet. I loved it. I'm already a fan of Ryu. I'm like, where is she, bring her out. Well, thank you so much for having this conversation with me. It was so fun and went in completely different directions than I had originally planned. But—
Shan Boodram
I can't imagine that I think it must have been exactly as you would plan. I think we touched on all the core points here. So yeah,
Ev'Yan Whitney
No, it was perfect. It was divine timing. I had so many other questions. but it just worked, so thank you.
Shan Boodram
We're having an affirmative touch, in case you guys can't see that. That's what that was. It was a dap.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Well, thank you so much, Shan, do you want to tell people where folks can find?
Shan Boodram
Yes, I have a podcast, but it comes out October 6, maybe by this time it is November 6 2025. So this is a moot point. But it's a weekly podcast called Lovers and Friends available everywhere podcasts are and I just couldn't be more thrilled about this work.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes. And I'm a guest as well.
Shan Boodram
Yes, on three episodes.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah. You can tune into lovers and friends. And yeah, I'm sure we'll do something else.
Shan Boodram
Thank you for having me.
. . .
Ev’Yan Whitney
I loved this conversation so much. And I'm really grateful to Shan for being so honest and open about her experiences of parenthood. And I'm wondering for you, what kinds of feelings this episode brought up for you? Like, if you're a parent, if it made you think about the ways you can bring a bit more agency and choice into your life alongside raising your kids? And if you're not a parent, either, because it's not time yet, or it's just not your jam, how did this conversation shift any internal narratives you have about what raising kids should look like? I'm really curious to know, you can share your thoughts and feelings with me on Instagram, the podcast insta is @Sensual.Self. My personal Insta is @EvYan.Whitney, or, you know, you could leave a review and share your piece there. I always want to hear from you. So please feel free. Tell me what's on your mind after listening to me and Shan speak.
So let's get into this week's sensual practice, shall we? Okay, so near the end of this episode, I loved what Shan said about what she hopes to teach her kid about her body and sensuality. I think so often in this work of liberating and healing ourselves, we can get so focused on ourselves and our own journeys. Or wait, let me speak for myself- I get really focused on healing myself that I forget that this work isn't just about me. It's about helping the people that come after me have their own experiences of sexual liberation and bodily autonomy and pleasure potential. I'm not going to have kids in this lifetime. But I still think about the ways my beliefs and politics around sexuality and sensual embodiment are helping to shape the future generations ideas of themselves through the kind of work that I do.
So I want to ask you, what do you hope to teach this next generation about sex and sensuality? What permission slips do you want to pass down to them when it comes to taking up space and discovering the nuances of their various identities? What barriers do you want to help break for them in the realm of shame, and disconnection and not showing themselves? And what values do you want to help instill in the kids today in service of their own sexual and sensual liberation? Whether you have kids are not, I'd love for you to take some time with those questions and see what comes up with the note that you first might need to ask yourself what your values are around your sexuality and sensuality, which is also super important. So yeah, take a few moments with yourself and process these questions. Maybe even have an age-appropriate conversation with a young one in your life about what sensuality is. And yeah, let me know how it goes.
. . .
Sensual Self is created and hosted by me, Ev'Yan Whitney. It is edited by myself, and Tribble. Music is by Melodiesinfonie from his song ‘Just Healing’.
For show notes, transcripts, and resources for your sensuality, go to evyanwhitney.com/podcast. You can also follow the show on Instagram @sensual.self.
I'm on Instagram @evyan.whitney, and you can check out evyanwhitney.com to find out more about me and my work. Also, check out my book, Sensual Self: Prompts and Practices For Getting In Touch With Your Body. You can find that wherever you find books.
Thank you so much for being here. And I'll see you in the next one.