Episode 52: The Sexually Liberated Woman is Nonbinary (with Dan Owens)

[ INTRO ]

Hey, everyone! I’m Ev’Yan Whitney and I’m really happy you’re here with me.

It’s been six months since my last episode, can you believe it? I definitely didn’t intend to be gone this long (again) but after that last episode, my work picked up for me pretty significantly. For one thing, I have been writing a book pretty much since the last episode and it’s finally, finally almost complete; it’s due to be out sometime next fall. So that took up a lot of my time and attention, and man, I am so excited about this book, you have no idea.

I’ve also been working on some really cool projects that have been stretching and expanding my craft as a sex educator and facilitator, one of the more recent ones being that I’m teaching meditations now that are targeted specifically to your sexual wellness. I’m doing it with this app called Coral and if you’d like to get a taste of what they’re like, I’ll put a link in the show notes for you to take a listen since so many of you have told me that my voice is soothing enough to do meditations with.

Other than my book and work, I’ve honestly just been trying to take really good care of myself over these last six months because 2020, this pandemic, the racism, the never-ending dumpster fire that is our political landscape—it’s just been a lot and it’s required me to really pause and be slow and intentional with what gets my time and energy. This podcast being one of them.

But here I am now, in your feed once more to bring you a new episode. And I’m thrilled to have this one be out because not only is it one of the most important episodes I’ve done, it marks the official last episode of The Sexually Liberated Woman. This podcast is about to undergo some really big, exciting, and necessary changes—all of which will be revealed in this episode. Maybe you might already know what it could be by the title of this episode.

Today, I’m bringing you a conversation about gender and identity with my really good friend, Dan Owens. Dan is an expert in social media and creative marketing. His focus the last five years has been in talent development and management, working with some of today's top influencers and experts in sex education, wellness, and self-improvement—including me.

He has been a kind of jack of all trades when it comes to his excellence, from working extensively in the entertainment industry to speaking at over 200 universities internationally, to being the founder of Radimo, a boutique creative agency based in Los Angeles. If you’d like to learn more about Dan and his work, I’ve put links in the show notes for you to click and follow and all of that jazz.

A couple notes: this episode is a little different than typical episodes you’ve heard here, 1. because it’s a lot longer than my usual episodes, and 2. because I’m not the only one doing the interviewing. Dan turns some questions over to me to get my input and prompt me to tell my story, which was a fun experience. I’ve relistened to this episode about 4 times now because I was the one that edited it, and even though it’s a bit more freeform, I love the way it sounds. It just sounds so chill, like two best friends talking shit and sharing stories with each other. Dan and I have had many many many many conversations about gender over the last two years. He’s been a kind of sounding board for me as I’ve come to him with my gender confusion, and the space he’s held for me, the affirmation he’s given me, has been medicinal. So yea, the episode is longer and looser, but I wouldn’t have it any other way.

Another thing you should know: This is not a gender 101 episode. Maybe someday I will do an episode like that but, Dan and I really wanted to focus on our own stories and experiences without having to interject with an explanatory comma about what certain words mean or whatever. So as you’re listening, if you come across any words or phrases that you're not familiar with, take a moment to google them and go down your own glorious gender rabbit hole.

OK, that’s enough of this intro. Let’s get into this episode. And stick around til the end. I’ve got some other things to share about what’s going to happen now that this podcast is kind of ending.

[ CONVERSATION WITH DAN + EV’YAN ]

EV'YAN: Hey, Dan.

DAN: Hi.

EV'YAN: Welcome to my podcast.

DAN: Thank you for having me.

EV'YAN: Yeah, thank you for being here. I'm so excited to talk to you about gender today.

DAN: A long time coming.

EV'YAN: I know. This is the fourth time [LAUGHS] we've recorded this? We've had some technical difficulties, but the timing is so divine.

DAN: So divine, so perfect.

EV'YAN: Yeah, I feel like when we first had this conversation about a year ago--

DAN: Mm-hmm.

EV'YAN: --maybe a little over a year ago.

DAN: Yeah, I think it was August of last year.

EV'YAN: Yeah, we were in totally different places than we are now.

DAN: Completely.

EV'YAN: So I'm--

DAN: And when we had the conversation a week ago, totally different places. [LAUGHS]

EV'YAN: Literally, that's how it is.

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: So yeah, before we get started, I would love to hear from you, how you identify and what your pronouns are.

DAN: My name is Dan Owens. My pronouns are he and they and I identify as -- genderqueer is my favorite word, but that is under the nonbinary umbrella, which is also under the trans umbrella. So nonbinary, trans, and genderqueer are all words that I use kind of interchangeably.

EV'YAN: Fantastic.

DAN: I'd love to know the same from you.

EV'YAN: Well, my name is Ev’Yan. [LAUGHS]

DAN: Oh, cool!

EV'YAN: My pronouns are she and they, they and she, and I identify as nonbinary. DAN: Ay!

EV'YAN: Ay! That feels so good to say.

DAN: Yeah, it feels so nice to see you say it.

EV'YAN: Yeah. I feel like... And just coming back to, you know, how different this energy around this conversation feels for me today, I feel like the last time we tried to record and it did not end up working... I don't know, I don't think that I said that I was nonbinary from a place of confidence or, I don't know, just feeling good about it. And where I'm at today, I'm like, that feels so good.

DAN: Yeah, I could tell just by the way that you said it, like-- EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: It just felt very natural. Also, I believe you announced using different pronouns but never announce like, a different identity--

EV'YAN: Mm-mm.

DAN: --and I kinda wonder why that is. Can I ask you a question straight away?

EV'YAN: Yeah, yeah. I think honestly I was trying to like, peel the band-aid off really slowly with this. I've had a lot of imposter syndrome come up about my gender, to the extent that it's made me feel like I'm not allowed to take up space in that identity, I'm not allowed to claim nonbinary because of how I present myself or the things that I know or don't know. So I think... I think I knew then when I changed my pronouns, which was about... I think about two years ago. I think I knew then that ‘they’ felt good for me, and so I wanted people to know that. I already had an inkling by then that there was something curious [LAUGHS] going on with my gender, but I didn't feel comfortable even really labeling myself or claiming that title for myself.

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: You know? I think at that time, probably up until pretty recently, I was just describing myself as ‘gender confused’--

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: --and that felt more safe for me, like my imposter syndrome did not come up for that. And yeah, I think now after just having a lot of time to sit with it and just really wanting to leave this behind in 2020. Like, I want 2021 to be the year that I'm fully expressed. And yeah, it just feels so ready. I feel really ready to talk about it.

DAN: Yeah, yeah. Well, it looks good on you. EV'YAN: Oh, thanks!

DAN: Yeah!

EV'YAN: Thank you. I would love to hear about your origin story when it came to your gender, like how it was you discovered that you were nonbinary, trans, genderqueer, ‘cause... And I wanna say too that one of the things that has really helped me in my process is being able to see your journey to uncovering and like, embodying your gender with like, pride and courageousness is... Like, from this place of not having come out really early, ‘cause that's my story--

DAN: Mm. Yeah.

EV'YAN: --and one of the reasons why I have so much imposter syndrome. So I would love to hear that from you.

DAN: Well, I just am so impressed that anyone under the age of 30 can come out as nonbinary, because my experience growing up was not that that existed [LAUGHS] like, at all. So I don't see how either one of us would’ve ever been able to be like, “This is how I identify, as this thing I've never heard of,” you know?

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: And also, my experience understanding trans identities was you either come out when you're four or you come out when you're 55. Like, as I started to hear stories, which I was already in my 20s by the time I started really hearing stories from people who were trans, it was kids and old people, you know what I mean? Like, there was nothing really in between. And I don't I think that that's actually true, I just think that there is--

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: You know, it's like, you have the Caitlyn Jenner's of the world or whatever, and they're already on TV and blah, blah, blah. But there were so many of us that were still in the middle of figuring out what anything even meant that I just feel like we all kind of figured it out at the same time or something. I don't know, it's like there's something that's been happening in the past 5, 10 years where we've just had so much access to information about identity. And there's the academic version of it, and there's the books and whatever, but there's also YouTube and Instagram, you know?

EV'YAN: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

DAN: And my... So I had like, a YouTube channel and was like, a famous YouTuber, I guess you would call it or whatever, [LAUGHS] in like, 2010, and I had a big Tumblr, and I was always known for being gay. Like, I was gay at that time. Other people identified me as a lesbian, but I always said gay. And then I said queer and that felt so much more accurate. But when I came out as bi in college, I was immediately shoved into a different kind of closet, called, “You're not bi, you're a lesbian.”

EV'YAN: Mm.

DAN: And that was never true for me. But I also was like... I don't know. When I look back on it now I'm like, “Oh, ‘cause I'm nonbinary. Like, [LAUGHS] no wonder. Okay, this all makes sense.”

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: But it was not until I was in my late 20s, early 30s when I was like, “Oh, there are things that I'm allowed to explore within myself that are not completely like, transition to a another gender or transition to the opposite gender,”--

EV'YAN: Mm.

DAN: --which is how I always saw things--

EV'YAN: Yeah, same.

DAN: --is that you were trans, it's because you were transitioning to the opposite gender. EV'YAN: Yep.

DAN: And I didn't want that, and I never wanted that. I never... I've never wanted to be a white woman and I've never wanted to be a white man. I'll say that. [LAUGHS] None of those make sense to me. But it just... Yeah, gender was hard because fashion was hard and fashion was hard because it made no sense. I never wanted to wear a suit ever. But, you know, as soon as you're gay people are like, “Put on a bow tie.” Like, I hated wearing a suit and I hated wearing a dress, and there was nothing in between!

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: Like, literally nothing.

EV'YAN: Right.

DAN: Until I got to my 30s and I was like, “I don't give a shit what I'm supposed to wear to this event. I just wanna look cool.”

EV'YAN: Mm.

DAN: Never wore a suit or dress ever again. Just like, wore something cool. And I was working on this... [LAUGHS] I wasn't working on it yet, but I was about to get a job working on an event where a friend of mine was producing a festival in a mansion and was like, “There's no way I can produce this by myself. I need... I need like, a producer to work with me,” and kept saying my name, kept saying I was incredible, that I had helped with some other music festival, blah, blah, blah. And they were just like, “No, no, no. We don't have the money.” And then I literally told her, “Tell them my name is Dan. Like, same story. I'm the same person. Literally just say ‘Dan’,” and they were like, “Yes.” And they found the money.

EV'YAN: Wow.

DAN: Yeah. So I started using Dan for business reasons. EV'YAN: Wow.

DAN: And it just felt so good. When I was working on that project, I was like... I just never felt so confident, so comfortable. Like, you know, we were working with like, 200 people or something, all these musicians and artists and designers and whatever, catering. Like, every person who came through that door or every person I got on the phone with, they all knew me as Dan. And it was a situation where I didn't have to like, disclose my former name or anything. Like, there was no they had to look at my license or blah, blah, blah, so I was so safe in that environment to be called Dan. I'm sure there were plenty of ways that it wasn't safe, but.

EV'YAN: Right, right.

DAN: In the very least, to be called Dan. And I was like, “I'm never going back. [LAUGHS] Like, I'm never going back. This feels amazing.” And that was like, four years ago?

EV'YAN: Wow.

DAN: Yeah, three, four years ago? And from that is where I changed my pronouns.

EV'YAN: Wow.

DAN: Yeah, it was Dan first, and for a while I was going by both my former name and my name, and then I was like, there's just... I was going by all pronouns, which I actually do really like. I do feel like all genders or whatever, but--

EV'YAN: Right.

DAN: --people don't get it. They don't really get like, when each pronoun is appropriate. I mean, besides my girlfriend, basically, but [LAUGHS] everyone else would be like, “Oh, okay. So I'll just like, use ‘she’ all the time then and that's fine with you, you've said.” And I'm like, “No. ‘I have three pronouns’ doesn't mean pick one pronoun and use it,” you know?

EV'YAN: Mm. Right, right.

DAN: But at least getting rid of that made me feel so much better. Like, when somebody calls me ‘Dan’, I feel seen. When somebody says ‘he’, I feel seen. When somebody says ‘they’, I feel like my community is recognized. And outside of that, I'm like, whoever's talking to me, I don't know. [LAUGHS] Like, I just... I just know it. So yeah. I mean, quite an origin story. More of an origin thought process, I guess. [LAUGHS]

EV'YAN: No, I love it. I mean, a lot of what you said, I really resonate with, because I think for a long, long time, one of the reasons why I haven't felt comfortable being nonbinary, like actually claiming that as mine, is because I don't have that, you know, stereotypical story of recognizing my gender. Like, my gender story is very similar to my sexuality story where I was raised in a home and with a lot of beliefs that told me that that wasn't an option. Like, having sex or being attracted to people other than a cis man is not an option for you, very similarly to the gender thing. And so just as I came out as queer at a very, I mean, ‘older age’, but I mean, you know, it's not... It's not that old, I mean, given the situation. You know, there's lots of people--

DAN: Right.

EV'YAN: --who come out at like, 75, you know? But for me to see all of my friends at the time who were like, “Oh, I’d been known that I was gay since I was like, three and I had a crush on my teacher,” I was like, I didn't even have access to that.

DAN: Mm-hmm.

EV'YAN: And same with gender. You know, it wasn't until a couple of years ago that I was doing some really deep and intense study about gender, mostly for my work, I realize, but I think honestly, it was for myself. Like, I was picking up these books and just reading a lot about gender theory, and I just really wanted to be well-rounded in my practice as a sex educator. And then I realized, like, I'm not actually researching this for work.

DAN: Right.

EV'YAN: Like, this is about me and this is about my identity. And even then, you know, I've been... As I've been really trying to process my own gender identity and expression, I've been trying to like, pick up on cues of like, when I was seven, do I look like a nonbinary kid? When I was like, eight or 12 or 14. And it's really interesting, because on the one hand like, I have those memories of being just totally embodied in my body and not really thinking about gender at that time. It just was like, “Oh, there's a dress. I'll wear a dress.” Like, it wasn't that deep, you know?

DAN: Mm-hmm.

EV'YAN: And so now when I look back, I mean, there's certainly a voice in my head that can be like, “Well, since you came out so late, you were like, a woman up until you were 33 or whatever,” and I'm able to look at pictures now and see that, oh, I've always been a nonbinary kid, you know?

DAN: Mm-hmm.

EV'YAN: And... Yeah. And also too, I stumbled across some writings that I did like... Oh, gosh, I think it was like, 2007? I shared them with you.

DAN: Oh!

EV'YAN: Yeah, it was... I can't remember what exactly it said, but it was about style and I said something like, “I want my style to be mostly boy with like, feminine touches,” or something like that.

DAN: Yeah. Uh-huh.

EV'YAN: And I mean, obviously I had no idea what I was saying at the time. I had no idea what those implications were, but like, that was how I felt and that's how I expressed and described myself at the time. So it's been really interesting to, I guess, like, try to subvert this voice in my brain that tells me that I'm not nonbinary enough because I don't have that that pivotal moment or... It's been more like... It hasn't been like, one big moment. It's been tiny little moments and memories and like, really courageous steps that I've taken to be here today, you know?

DAN: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a way more accurate of a depiction of how it is for everyone, to be honest. I think there are plenty of people who are like, “I was in the garden putting a tree in the ground and I realized in that moment, this is my identity,” but I think more than that, it's going into different spaces, being treated differently by different people, realizing what is comfortable and what isn't, and moreso realizing what isn't comfortable and what is not safe and being like, “I don't know why that makes me feel so fucking weird, but that is something I don't like.” And then however long down the road you realize like, “Oh, it's because they were calling us ladies.” Like, “Oh, it's because...”

EV'YAN: Right.

DAN: Like, it takes so long to unravel what it means because we're literally taught the thing you dislike is normal and you're gonna like it.

EV'YAN: Right.

DAN: Like, that's what they say to us. So then when we're like, “We dislike it,” “Okay, that's how it's supposed to be.” “Wonderful, moving on.” And you don't even question it. You don't like, think critically about that feeling of unsafety. You just move on thinking, “I'm supposed to feel unsafe,” and you never really uncover any parts of your identity.

EV'YAN: Yeah, yeah. This is making me think about gender dysphoria versus gender euphoria, and I think one of the things that has kept me from feeling like I was allowed to call myself nonbinary is I didn't really experience very much gender dysphoria. I mean, there are certainly moments where like, you know, someone calling me ‘ladies’ or... I really don't like being called ‘woman’. Like, I know that and I can feel that viscerally in my body, but in terms of feeling like I don't wanna have boobs or [LAUGHS] I don't want to have a vulva, like none of those things really resonated with me so I'm like, “Am I even nonbinary--”

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: “--if I don't hate my body?”

DAN: That's why I didn't come out for so long--

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: --is because I was like, “I don't...” I literally was like, “I don't hate myself, so I can't be trans.”

EV'YAN: Mm.

DAN: And that's such a harmful thing to think. EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: Like, most trans people don't hate themselves. We hate what society puts on us and makes us believe and blah, blah, blah, but it's... You know, there are so many trans individuals who... I mean, I'll just use myself for example. The second I started using the word ‘genderqueer’ I was like, “I love my body now.” Like, now that I know like, these are boy titties, I'm having the time of my fucking life, you know? The only time I was nervous about my body is when I felt like my body had to be a certain way so that people could see me the way that they really wanted to see me. Like, they didn't want to see an ugly girl or whatever. They didn’t want to see a prissy boy. Like, they wanted to see a pretty, feminine lady human. [LAUGHS] I don't even know how to talk about it. But like, you know, other people were projecting... I said something on a podcast forever ago that was like, “I don't have dysphoria but people have dysphoria about me.”

EV'YAN: Mm, yeah.

DAN: Like, people look at me and they're like... They either like, really, really don't like it or they really, really don't see what they're looking at.

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: So it's really difficult. But that's also why gender euphoria was so important to me. Like, I just... It's easier for me to think of like, here are some things about my gender that I love. Here are some things that make me feel seen.

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: Here are the things that make me feel really good. Like, it's kind of hard for me to think like, what are the things about myself and my gender that I dislike? What are the things about myself and my gender that don't align with how I feel inside when how I feel inside is the projection of what other people think gender is supposed to be?

EV'YAN: Mm. Mm-hmm.

DAN: So it's such a confusing journey and I think it's really helpful, and it's also really dangerous, ‘cause dysphoria is also a word that's used in therapy and psychiatry, so people can... Literally if they don't have that word on a paper, they cannot get hormones.

EV'YAN: Right, right.

DAN: So even if you are trans and you're like, “I love my body but I would love if my pecs looked like this instead! I wanna go get hormones!” You would have to in therapy explain to them that you don't feel comfortable in a body that you do feel comfortable in--

EV'YAN: Right.

DAN: --just so they could sign off on the paper so that you can continue to explore your gender journey. It's like... It's wild. It's wild.

EV'YAN: It's really wild. It’s really wild. I mean, I think that once I started to focus more on gender euphoria as opposed to gender dysphoria, that's when a light clicked up in my head.

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: I was like, “Oh, I know that, you know, I feel more comfortable dressing in a particular way.” For me, I think that my own gender expression has come through the way that I feel internally, like intuitively, you know? Just as I said, like, viscerally I can feel it in my body whenever someone calls me a lady or a woman. I'm like, “Ugh.” Like, International Women's Day this year [LAUGHS] was really rough--

DAN: Goodness.

EV'YAN: -- 'cause I'm like.. It was constant. Like, I was being lumped into these black women sex educators. And I take a little bit of responsibility for that because I haven't actually come out and said, “Hey...” You know, I wasn't correcting those people.

DAN: Mm-hmm.

EV'YAN: But that information was really interesting for me to notice. Like, I can pick up on the things that feel good and the things that don't feel good.

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: And for me, it's like, I've been playing around with dressing sometimes and like, you know, the way that I... Like what my style is and things like that. And I have to admit that I find it a little hard for me to not see that as superficial, that like... And I don't know why that's coming up. I'm sure it's connected to imposter syndrome, because everything kinda comes back to that for me, but I’ve found myself being like, “Eh, clothes are clothes,” you know what I mean? But I'm having to remind myself that the way that I dress myself is a direct reflection of how I feel inside, and so if my gender identity comes through in a particular mode of dress or style, even if that style on the outside to some would appear like, “Oh, that's woman-identified,” [LAUGHS] or whatever, like, it's about how I feel as opposed to what other people think of me.

DAN: Yeah, and it's only the people who don't understand nonbinary identity at all that will see it so binary. Like, anyone who has any understanding of nonbinary would never look at the way you dress and be like, “Probably cis,” you know what I mean?

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: Like, it's just... That isn't how it goes. I mean, part of it is like, I don't know, whatever the nonbinary intuitive whatever it is, but also, the second your eyes are opened up to the fact that it's not just number one, number two versus each other--

EV'YAN: [LAUGHS] Yeah.

DAN: --then you start to see everything so differently. And there are people who, even if they identify as cis, binary, it's like, you can see within them the ways that they are either going against the binary or, you know, could possibly be binary if they like, opened that door even a tiny bit. Like, you start to look around the world and see the possibilities of not only your own identity but other people's identities, you know? Like maybe two years ago, a neighbor you never would’ve asked, now you're like, “I wonder what their pronouns are?”

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: You know, it just changes the way everything looks.

EV'YAN: Yeah. Yeah, this conversation is making me want to ask you, ‘cause I'm just really curious... I don't know if I've ever asked you this before. Like, what does your gender expression mean to you? And by that like... ‘Cause one thing that I'm noticing as I've heard so many stories from nonbinary folks and been doing a lot of like, research and just checking in with myself, it's so different. There's not one definition or expression of being nonbinary, trans, genderqueer, and I'm really like... I'm really curious about like, what genderqueer, nonbinary, trans means to you, and in particular, how that shows up for you, you know?

DAN: Mm-hmm. That's a great question. Well, to me, nonbinary... I'll start there. Nonbinary just means not within the binary.

EV'YAN: Mm-hmm.

DAN: So if we think of binary as male and female, or man and woman, or masculine and feminine, we assume that we exist either under one or the other of those. So to me, nonbinary means like, that's not how it is. [LAUGHS] Like, there's either... You know, you can think of it however you want. Either there's a spectrum from one side to the other, which still feels a little binary to me, or I've seen it described as like, gender is in a circle, so even... Like, there is no binary on a circle, you know?

EV'YAN: Right, right.

DAN: You could be anywhere on the spectrum and you still--

EV'YAN: Right.

DAN: You know, even if we decide that masculine and feminine are ways to describe, I don't know, the way clothes look or hang off you--

EV'YAN: Sure.

DAN: --or whatever, or even if we decide to use those words for that, that would still fall in this like, weird circle in a way where you wouldn't be able to pit the two against each other.

EV'YAN: I love... I have to say, I love that. Like, I love the idea of seeing gender as a circle as opposed to a line because I think that's how so many of us see it. It's like, man on one side, woman on the other, and nonbinary is in the middle.

DAN: Mm-hmm.

EV'YAN: And this idea of a circle? You just blew my mind. I love that.

DAN: Yeah, one time I did... I mean, I had like, two days where I did art once [LAUGHS] and it was... I had gotten a lot of my deceased mother's old paints and I was just like, testing out the brushes and I ended up doing just like, a bunch of little circles in a circle. They were all different colors and they were from like... They were kinda from a deep red to a deep purple, so it wasn't like, pink and blue.

EV'YAN: Mm.

DAN: There was literally no pink and blue, but everything had pink and blue in it. And when my friends came over, I would be like, “Pick your gender,” and almost everyone picked two or more colors, and I was like, “'Cause that's why! [LAUGHS] ‘Cause that’s why!”

EV'YAN: Yeah. Yeah.

DAN: Like, almost everyone picked two or more colors, and I did as well. Like, it just made sense to me. And my gender expression is the same way, like two or more colors.

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: I don't know, I just... I'm not comfortable shopping in the men's section in LL Bean [LAUGHS] nd I'm not comfortable shopping in the fucking women's section of Ann Taylor or whatever. I don't know [LAUGHS] what the... I don't know what the binary is.

EV'YAN: I’m sorry, imagining you in Ann Taylor. [LAUGHS]

DAN: I know, I actually make more sense in the LL Bean, don’t I?

EV'YAN: A little bit, yeah. Like, but Ann Taylor.

DAN: Ann Taylor makes no sense. Woo! I'm really proud of myself for even remembering that Ann Taylor exists.

EV'YAN: I mean, I'm surprised you pulled those two brands out of your ass like that-- [LAUGHS]

DAN: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.

EV'YAN: --’cause they really do speak to like, [DEEP VOICE] burly man and like, [HIGH-PITCHED VOICE] womanly woman! [LAUGHS]

DAN: Exactly! Which is like, I don't feel like I'm either one of those things! Like, I'm really-- EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: --like I've told you before, either fruity boy or like, fairy boy. You've called me fairy god-brother.

EV'YAN: Yes!

DAN: Like, there's something about a glittery prince that really makes sense to me. But when I tell you I was not comfortable with any, for lack of a better word, feminine traits being within my masculinity, like I... You know, I was in a relationship with someone who liked it better when I was a masculine--

EV'YAN: Mm.

DAN: --and that really confused me, ‘cause there are things that I love that would be considered more feminine and I didn't really get to explore that. Like, I have this big, furry, pink hoodie that I love wearing and it's like, why does that make me feminine?

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: You know, I wanna express myself by looking like a funny little Muppet, not I wanna express myself by wearing pink ‘cause pink is for my... Whatever! [LAUGHS] I don’t know. But my gender expression is just very much like, you can't figure it out. Like, that's the thing. People usually see me and people stare at me everywhere I go, and I don't think it's because they hate me. I mean, hey, there are some places where that is the case--

EV'YAN: Sure.

DAN: --but I think it's literally ‘cause they're trying to figure out what the fuck is going on. EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: ‘Cause I don't fit within the expression they're used to. Like, I don't... And when I am literally wearing like, my Carhartt jacket and my hat and my whatever, I'll go to Trader Joe's and they'll be like, “Sir! You left your honey!” And like, [EV’YAN LAUGHS] in that way, I fall into their boy gender whatever and that feels fine to me. That feels really good to me. But it's also like, just ‘cause they see I'm wearing a Carhartt jacket, if they'd taken like two more minutes to like, look at the rest of my outfit--

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: --figure out my pink socks with my purple Tevas, like, they woulda just been like, [STAMMERING] “You?” Which is what happens the most.

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: Which is honestly what I'm going for, but it's not always seen that way. I mean, I don't know if that's exactly what you were asking, but I would also defer to you. Like, how does your gender expression show up outside of even just clothes?

EV'YAN: Oh, man. Well, I mean, first, I wanna say that like, you're bringing up something that I've been thinking about a lot. I was actually at the store recently and, you know, I've been really curious about the way that I present myself and the way that other people see me, and I've been exploring what it looks like for me to dress in a particular way that's based on intention as opposed to like, “This is in my closet. Let me just throw this on.” Because I've been noticing that there are nuances to my gender, that today I could feel one way and that tomorrow I might feel something completely different.

DAN: Yes!

EV'YAN: So the way that I dress, the way that I adorn myself, even the way that I talk, like, it changes. And so I went to the store a few days ago actually and I was feeling very much in my like, I'm not in the feminine realm. I'm like, sort of moving in between, you know? But like not... I'm more in the masc area. And I was just really curious to see how other people were going to see me. And I got ‘ma’am’-ed, ‘miss’-ed up the wazoo.

DAN: Ugh.

EV'YAN: And I was like... For me, it wasn't a jolt in my body. It was just like, that's really interesting. I wonder what people are seeing. Because for me, if I saw myself walking down the street, I wouldn't... I mean, I wouldn't make that assumption, you know?

DAN: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

EV'YAN: But it was really interesting, especially because [LAUGHS] the person that ‘ma’am’-ed me was someone who was like, very queer-looking.

DAN: Mm-hmm.

EV'YAN: And I was like, how... I don't understand how... And especially in COVID too, like, ‘cause most of my face... You can't even see my face.

DAN: Right! So what is it based on? EV'YAN: Yeah! And so like--

DAN: That’s my question all the time-- EV'YAN: Right.

DAN: --is what are people looking at? Like, I don't even understand. EV'YAN: Right.

DAN: I mean, to me, especially when you and I go out together, I'm just like, we look so nonbinary.

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: Like, there's no way around it. But we will get like, ‘ladies’-ed and I'm like, what the fuck are you looking at?

EV'YAN: Yeah, like, what are people seeing? [LAUGHS]

DAN: What are you seeing?! Yeah! ‘Cause it's not like I'm walking around in like, high heels [EV’YAN LAUGHS] and I got glitter on my eye, you know?

EV'YAN: Yeah, yeah.

DAN: It's not like that at all. And I feel that the energy that I carry a lot of the time, especially now because of COVID, I feel like I have to bulk up a little bit and like, really put myself in a place of protection, because it's like, you know, shits crazy out there. And to still get ‘ma’am’-ed and ‘miss’-ed, I'm like, that's... I don't know. And so I'm wondering like, what I would need to do, not necessarily feeling like I need to do something, but like, what would it take for me to have that same experience that people have with you where it's like, [STAMMERING] ”I don't know what you are.” Do I have to butch it up more? What does that look like? Why does it matter? [LAUGHS]

EV'YAN: Yeah, I mean... Yeah, what you would have to do is you would have to preconceive how everyone is gonna see you and then try to get ahead of their own presumptions about you. You know, impossible.

DAN: It's so impossible.

EV'YAN: It’s fucking impossible.

DAN: Yeah, it's impossible. I mean, that's why community is so important. EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: Like, it's not even... I don't know. What happened for me was I realized I was nonbinary, or accepted I was nonbinary, or however you wanna phrase that, and then my nonbinary community came to me. It was like then, you know, Jordi became one of the closest people to me then. Like, it was just... The way that it worked for me was like, I had to see myself first and then I started to attract all the people that were like, “Oh, yeah, yeah! Dan, duh.”

EV'YAN: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

DAN: Like, it just, you know... And the people who are in my life now it's like, there's no question ever, which is why it's almost like it's gotten worse, like, being misgendered. A year ago--

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: --maybe it wouldn't have felt so bad as it feels now, but everyone in my life gets it. EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: Like, friends who I've had since I was 11 understand me way better now. The second I was like, “Oh, yeah. I use all pronouns and I go by Dan,” they were like, “Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s way easier.” Like, nobody had any trouble with it. And then now that almost all the people in my life are like so, so spot on, like even my dad calls me Dan, when my neighbor sees me and Zoey walking upstairs, and they're like, “Hi, girls!” I'm like, shocked to the core.

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: I'm like, “What enough fuck is going on?” And it really makes me wanna move into the middle of the woods [EV’YAN LAUGHS] with all my nonbinary friends--

EV'YAN: Yeah. Yeah.

DAN: And everybody else can fuck off. Like, [LAUGHS] that's genuinely what it's like.

EV'YAN: Yeah. I actually have a question. I feel like I've asked you this before but I wanna know how you see me. I know you asked me like, you know, who I am as a nonbinary person, how it shows up for me, but I'm really fascinated by the way that my chosen family and loved ones see me. Like, I don't... I kinda care about the people on the street that I don't know, but I care more so about folks like you and Jonathan and Zoey and like, the people that I really just cherish. And the reason why I'm curious about this is because I recently had a conversation with someone who was like, “I thought you were nonbinary for ages [DAN LAUGHS] and you came out years ago!” And that threw me for a loop ‘cause I was like, “Well, I didn't even know that I was nonbinary until like, a couple of years ago, really.”

DAN: Mm-hmm.

EV'YAN: So yeah, I'm just really curious about how you see me.

DAN: Well, I wouldn't say that it's like we met and I was like, “I bet you're nonbinary,” [LAUGHS] you know what I mean? It's definitely not like that. But to me, you've always been Ev’Yan and it's like... I don't know. The way that you've described before the title of your podcast and being like, the sexually liberated woman is like, not me. It's about the people that I talk to. I was like, “Oh! Thank fuck,” because that never made sense to me.

EV'YAN: Mm.

DAN: I was like... I just never understood why that was the name of your podcast, which we can get into talking about, of course, but like, that didn't make sense to me. And then when, you know, the more gender conversations that we had, it came more forward that you were nonbinary, I was like, “Oh, no shit that didn't make sense to me then.” And also, I think I was like, them-ing you before you were--

EV'YAN: You were.

DAN: Yeah, before you were fully using they pronouns.

EV'YAN: Yeah, and I remember asking you actually like, “Why are you doing that?” Not from a place of just like, why are you doing that?

DAN: Right.

EV'YAN: But morreso I was just curious about where that was coming from.

DAN: Mm-hmm. I remember you asking me too because I don't wanna be misgendering someone--

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: --and also, you know, I will use they for people if I don't know their pronouns, but it just came out of me so naturally. Like, I never tried to nonbinar-ize you or something. [LAUGHS] It just like, came really naturally out of me, and I think really more than anything I saw like, whatever it is that we share in gender, which, you know, who knows if you would say like, “We have the same gender expression,” or something. That maybe isn't the case, but like, it's similar.

EV'YAN: I feel like it’s similar.

DAN: Yeah, but it is similar.

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: Like, I feel like me, you, and Jordi could get mistaken for one another, even though the three of us look nothing alike in what each other dresses [LAUGHS] or whatever, you know?

EV'YAN: Yeah. Right.

DAN: It's like, there's something about the amount of gender energies again, if we are to go back to masculine and feminine, it feels very balanced within you. It doesn't feel like... Like, I don't see you and think, “Oh, this is a very, very feminine person who sometimes like, I don't know, wears a tank top or whatever.” Like, to me, your gender energies feel so balanced that I wouldn't be able to pick one or the other.

EV'YAN: That’s really interesting.

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: That's really, really interesting.

DAN: And I'm sure some of it is the way you dress, but I think more of my memories of the way you dress are probably more, I guess... Well, not even though. I'm like, is a brown jumpsuit feminine? [LAUGHS]

EV'YAN: Right, because, I mean, then we get into the space of like, what exactly does feminine mean? What exactly does masculine mean?

DAN: Right.

EV'YAN: You know, because if we're gonna say that high heels and glitter is feminine, like, why?

DAN: Why? Literally, yeah. EV'YAN: Literally why? [LAUGHS]

DAN: Right? Like, Harry Styles just wore that dress and I'm like, well, he didn't look feminine ‘cause he was wearing a dress. You know, he was wearing a dress and that was great, because he wanted to wear the dress.

EV'YAN: Right.

DAN: To me, it didn't make him look like, softer, more feminine, more gay, more whatever. EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: I was like, here’s a dude in a dress. [LAUGHS]

EV'YAN: Yeah, and that doesn't say anything about their gender necessarily--

DAN: Right.

EV'YAN: --’cause anybody can put on a dress.

DAN: Also, if you put glitter on my cheeks, I look more masculine. Explain it. [LAUGHS]

EV'YAN: I mean, I was... Me and Zoey had talked about this like, I think last year where she was talking about how she like, sometimes doesn't wear a bra, and I do the same. Like, I feel the most masculine when my tits are out.

DAN: Mm. Mm-hmm.

EV'YAN: And like, that is interesting for people ‘cause I think they would think that, you know, seeing me with my tits out and my nipples, you know, poking through a tank top that I'm being more feminine--

DAN: Yeah, but you're so right.

EV'YAN: --but I feel so much more masculine when I have my tits out like that.

DAN: Yeah, you're so, so right, ‘cause I would see it the same way, ‘cause I know all the outfits you're talking about. [LAUGHS]

EV'YAN: Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking about the stuff... Like, even when I wear a dress. I think the things that I've been thinking of a lot lately is that I can feel gender dysphoria so much more based on what I’m wearing and that is when it feels very visceral to me. A really great example, and I don't even know if you remember this, but we were in New York together and I had just done a panel and it was really, really hot, so I was wearing like, this polyester pantsuit or whatever, and it was really pretty, but it was so hot. And I remember I packed a dress because I knew that after the panel that I was gonna change, and I was wearing a pantsuit with heels.

DAN: Mm-hmm.

EV'YAN: So when I changed, I was wearing like, a slinky dress and heels, and I remember being so fucking uncomfortable.

DAN: I remember that.

EV'YAN: Like, I wanted to crawl out of my fucking skin because, to me, it just felt way too feminine.

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: And I've noticed that that has been like a... That there's been history of that for me for many years.

DAN: Yeah, that’s really interesting. I remember that. You were like... In my mind, I was like, “You look great. What is it? Like, explain what it is that makes you uncomfortable.” And it was specifically the two of them together.

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: You would wear the heels with your pantsuit or you would wear the dress with your Converse--

EV'YAN: Exactly.

DAN: --but having the two of them together put them in this different category. EV'YAN: Right.

DAN: I remember that. I mean, we talked so much about gender on that trip too-- EV'YAN: We did.

DAN: --that it was like, you can't ignore shit like that, once you're like, “Hey, so the idea of gender euphoria,” and then something like that happens and it's like, woo! But I'm with you. There are like... Clothes are really difficult for me. There are some things that's like, a sleeve will be a certain way and I'm like, “No. I literally can't. I can’t wear this.”

EV'YAN: Yeah. Yeah.

DAN: And it's tough too, ‘cause like, I don't know... I don't... Which I would be interested to ask you about some of this stuff, but... Oh my god, actually I've been wanting to talk to you about this so bad.

EV'YAN: What? What, what, what? I'm so excited.

DAN: Well, I wanna talk about binders and packers and stuff like that. EV'YAN: Yeah, yeah.

DAN: And I'm personally not interested in wearing a binder ‘cause I'm so sensitive. It's like, I could never do like, getting a surgery or taking hormones or wearing a binder ‘cause it's like, I get sick. I took Tylenol a year ago and I was sick for two weeks.

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: So you know, hospitals, doctors, whatever. We can go back into my whole history if you want [EV’YAN LAUGHS] one day. But anyways, that stuff just isn't for me and I can't feel constricted in that way. I do wear a low-compression swim top instead, Outplay Swimwear if you wanna get one, and I absolutely love it, but the other day I got a reading from Jordi actually, which everyone should do, @EarthtoJordi on Instagram, and gender was one of my questions, and at the end she was like, “Let me just see if there's anything else from the cards. Have you ever tried a packer?” [EV’YAN GASPS] And like, moved on, and I was like, “What?” Which I've not been interested in a packer either.

EV'YAN: Huh.

DAN: I don't want something hanging in my pants. I don't know. [EV’YAN LAUGHS] But then I found, Ev’Yan, really cute boxer briefs, lavender, and they have a little insert so you can put a packer in, and there's just a foam insert, which is just like a boop! And it literally looks like a little Ken crotch--

EV'YAN: Oh!

DAN: --and I have been screaming ‘Ken crotch’ for like, [EV’YAN LAUGHS] months. Like, I'm about to bring Zoey over here and be like, “When did I start screaming ‘Ken crotch’?” ‘Cause I was like, that is the thing that I identify with most.

EV'YAN: Ah, yeah, yeah.

DAN: That is the... I don't know. If I could flip a switch or whatever. I mean, I don't wanna change anything about my body, but that is something... Like, I want a little protective cup, you know?

EV'YAN: Mm-hmm.

DAN: Or something like that-- EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: --that I just literally discovered, what, the day after we tried to record the podcast [LAUGHS] the first time or something? But I'm just interested to know how you feel about those things. Any sort of like, clothes altering, like, body shaping, any of that stuff. Have you thought about any of that or?

EV'YAN: You know, it's interesting. I haven't, but I feel like I've been selecting those things for myself without even knowing it.

DAN: Mm.

EV'YAN: I mean, because of COVID and quarantine, I'm not really wearing bras very much these days--

DAN: Right.

EV'YAN: --’cause I'm in my house and I mean, it doesn't really matter if I'm wearing a bra and that's fine, but when I do go out, I typically wear like, sports leisure wear, you know?

DAN: Mm-hmm.

EV'YAN: And typically, you know, it's a sports bra and the sports bras just like [SLURP]. You know, they suck it all in. And I've been noticing how it feels for me to have like, my chest become much smaller, and depending on the day, sometimes I really like that.

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: I think, for me, it feels... Sometimes it can feel safe for me. DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: Like I'm not being ogled, or it also... I'm thinking about this now, like I'm literally processing this in real time. I feel like whenever I wear something like that, it makes me feel like there’s a potential that someone would not ‘ma'am’ or ‘miss’ me, you know?

DAN: Yeah, absolutely.

EV'YAN: Like, that ups the potential where that doesn't happen. So I've been noticing that I do tend to steer toward... Like, if I am going to wear something and I'm out somewhere like, I do notice that I tend to wear something that's going to be restrictive, but it didn't really dawn on me until kind of you asking me that question that that's where that was coming from.

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: I don't have any interest in packing. DAN: Mm-hmm.

EV'YAN: Yeah, I don't really have any interest in that at this stage. I mean, I don't know. I think that’s the other thing that I think about a lot when it comes to my gender is the notion that like, in order for you to be nonbinary or trans, as you said before, that you have to want to be a man, and because that thing was missing for me... Like, I have no desire to be a man, I have no desire to be... I mean, it would be kinda fun to be ‘sir’-ed.

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: I kinda like that. That'd be kinda fun. But in terms of embodying that like, full cis male energy--

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: I'm not into that at all. I would love to have a penis, but not because it's attached to manlihood.

DAN: Right, I know.

EV'YAN: It's more just like--

DAN: I wanna like, push a button and be able to switch.

EV'YAN: Yes! I just wanna feel what that feels and like--

DAN: Yeah, for sure.

EV'YAN: --have fun with something like that. But it to me, it's not attached to gender. It's just a part of the body that I don't have that I would be interested in playing with.

DAN: Yeah. Yeah, same. Well, just ‘cause anyone of any gender can have a penis. EV'YAN: Yeah. Right.

DAN: You know what I mean? So it's like, to think about, first of all, genitals in general, it's like, they all do the same thing, so it's so odd to me that, in general, we've decided to assign one or the other, specifically because, again, if you wanna talk about something on a circle, like, no two genitals look the same.

EV'YAN: Mm-hmm.

DAN: The functions are so similar. It literally is a spectrum all the way from teeny tiny to big large. And then like all the glee-globs in the middle [LAUGHS] do whatever they need to do. Like, I've never thought about my genitals being connected to my gender, and in fact, it like, bothers me so much that people ask your gender everywhere. Like, I guess if, you know... I guess in some ways you have to, but why do I have to put my gender on my job application? Like, what?

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: I don't know. It doesn't make any sense. Or like, why do I have to put my gender when I'm signing up for Linktree.com? Or whatever, which maybe I don't have to. I don't wanna [LAUGHS] throw them under the bus for no reason. I don't wanna throw them under the bus for no reason! But you know, Facebook, Instagram, whatever.

EV'YAN: Sure.

DAN: Why do I have to put my gender in these places where it genuinely does not matter? I guess if you wanna target ads toward me or whatever? So I do put ;man’. Like, my ASOS, I put ‘man’ ‘cause I'm like, I really don't wanna be getting dress emails, but--

EV'YAN: Right. Yeah, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense at all. DAN: No!

EV'YAN: And I mean, I don't... Yeah, I... Ugh.

DAN: Ugh. [LAUGHS]

EV'YAN: Literally, that's how it feels!

DAN: And it's like, really, it's a debilitating feeling to feel. Like for example, what I'm experiencing right now is, you know, doing job applications and sending in my resume and it's like, I will feel so fucking confident, and an all the jobs I'm looking at are Director-level, VP, senior level stuff like that, and I'm definitely qualified. Been in the business for 12 years, so good at this stuff, have such a bulked-up, great resume, wonderful references. And then I'm on the application website and my choices are male, female, and prefer not to say, and I'm like, “Well, I do prefer to say though.” Like, what? Why is that my only option?

EV'YAN: I don't understand why that is an option.

DAN: I don't either! I mean, ‘prefer not to say’ is a great option to give people for any question you have--

EV'YAN: Sure.

DAN: --but like, male, female. ‘Other’ is even better. [LAUGHS] E; Yeah.

DAN: I don't know. Like, give me the opportunity. Like male, female, fill in the blank even. Let me say it if you have to fuckin’ know in the first place. But it's like, I'll feel so confident and then there'll be like, “Okay, if you have any former name, you have to write it down right now so that we can look it up,” and I'm like, “Fuck. So I feel great about my resume and now I have to put my gender, which you don't have listed here, and I have to give you my former name, which makes me so uncomfortable, and now I, X, don't even wanna fuckin’ work for this company.”

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: I literally... I can be so far down into an application, cover letter ready to go, and I will literally just be like, “Nevermind,” ‘cause you feel like such shit when you know who you are, you present who you are, and then you're met with, “Thank you for presenting yourself. Can we have some other options?” Like, it just sucks. It's weird.

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: I wanna ask you something.

EV'YAN: Yeah, ask me something.

DAN: Well, I really wanna talk about the title of your podcast.

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: I wanna know how it makes you feel and when you realized you felt that way.

EV'YAN: So I have to give context--

DAN: Love it.

EV'YAN: --because you mentioned this earlier, but I want to make sure that everyone knows this. [LAUGHS] The ‘sexually liberated woman’ was never supposed to be a descriptor of me. It was always a descriptor of the people that I had worked with. So The Sexually Liberated Woman wasn't even really a podcast. It was like an audio series that I did where I interviewed a few of my clients, I think it was three or four of them. It's been so long ago, I don't really remember. And I just talked to them about their journey, their journey of working with me in particular, but mostly like, their journey of sexual self discovery and sexual healing. And one of the through lines with those people who, at the time, all identified as cis women, was their reclamation of the idea that they are sexually liberated, that through this work, they have found the confidence to say that they are in the process of sexual liberation, because I think for me, I don't see sexual liberation as a destination. It's more of a journey, which I also think that that probably got lost in the translation [LAUGHS] of the podcast title. But anyway, it was from that place that I started the podcast, and it wasn't because I was calling myself a sexually liberated woman. It was because I was talking to these people who identified as women and they were really excited to finally be able to say like, “After all the trauma that I have experienced, after all of the shame that I've put myself through, I can say that I'm a sexually liberated woman.” And it dawned on me kind of recently that like, oh, people think that I’m saying that I'm the sexually liberated woman. That was never my intention.

DAN: Right.

EV'YAN: And it was probably when that pinged into my head, as well as the explorations that I've been doing with gender, that I'm like, “Oh, this doesn't feel good.” Like, I'm cool to acknowledge the sexually liberated woman and anyone who identifies as a woman, you know? Like, I love that. I encourage that. I'm inspired by that. But if we're just talking about me, I don't identify as a woman. I don't... Like, I just... Yuck. [LAUGHS]

DAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

EV'YAN: I just, I don't... It's not my jam. And the idea that people could be thinking that I'm talking about myself... Yeah, I don't wanna confuse people. So yeah, I have to change the title of this podcast. I can't continue to... Yeah, I just can't continue to align myself with something, even if in my mind, I'm like, “No, no, no. I'm not talking about me. It's talking about all these other people.” Like, it's not getting that... And you even said so yourself, that you thought that I named the podcast because I was talking about myself.

DAN: Right, yeah. So many nonbinary people that listen to your podcast just went, “Oh.” EV'YAN: [LAUGHS] Well, for me, I've been like, “Oh,” as well--

DAN: [LAUGHS] Yeah.

EV'YAN: --’cause I'm like, this podcast was never about me. I wanted to share my story, and obviously there's lots of episodes where I'm talking about my own journey of sexual liberation, but I just wanted it to be like, a journey of sexual liberation. I wasn't ever putting myself on a pedestal to be, “I'm the sexually liberated woman, guys.”

DAN: Right.

EV'YAN: I thought I was doing a pretty good job of being like... You know, even in the description of the podcast, I’m like, “This podcast celebrates, honors, encourages the sexually liberated woman,” like, as an archetype.

DAN: Right.

EV'YAN: But again, I don't think people were catching on to that. DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: Yeah, just knowing that people have been seeing me in that way and having the visceral response in my body whenever I think about myself as being a woman at this stage, I'm like, “Nah. It has to go. It has to change.”

DAN: Dang. Something that we touched on when we faux-recorded [EV’YAN LAUGHS] was family, and I... Like, my dad calls me Dan and I've expressed sort of like, I prefer he and they pronouns, but we haven't had a full sit-down, whole conversation, which now I'm... Thank god for Elliott Page is all I have to say, ‘cause I'm like, that validated my pronouns so much more than anything else--

EV'YAN: Yeah. Yeah.

DAN: --on planet fuckin’ Earth. Like, they're... I can't tell you how many people are just confused by me. Like, the thing that's been stressing me out the most is what you're talking about with this podcast, how other people are perceiving and talking about me.

EV'YAN: Mm-hmm.

DAN: And we don't have any control over that.

EV'YAN: We have zero control over that. Yeah, I'm glad that you mentioned family, because that has been something that I've been thinking about a lot as I grow in my pride and confidence of being nonbinary. I've been wondering like, is it time for me to have a conversation with my family? And I still feel really uncomfortable with that--

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: --’cause I don't want to... This is something that just feels so precious to me and so tender and delicate that I just don't think that the time right now... I don't wanna have to explain myself. I don't wanna have to put myself in a defensive, ‘cause I know that that's the position that I'm gonna have to be put in. And there's still a lot of things about my nonbinary-ness that I don't know.

DAN: Right.

EV'YAN: Like, it's not lost on me that you asked me a question ages ago about like, “What does nonbinary mean to you?” And I'm like, “So anyway, let's talk about s...” [LAUGHS] I don't know if you noticed that, but I completely changed the subject, ‘cause I don't know! I mean like, I can give the things that make me feel good, I can talk about the things that don't really feel all that great, I can talk about how I need to change the name of this podcast because it doesn't fit with me, but when it comes to me having a sit-down conversation with my mom, being like, “So just so you know, I'm nonbinary. I'm still using she pronouns but you can also use they. That feels really good to me.”

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: It just doesn't feel safe for me right now. DAN: Yeah, that's tough.

EV'YAN: And I don't necessarily think that my mom or my sister or anyone else in my family wouldn't be able to handle that information, I just don't think that I'm strong enough to be able to sit in the seat of my power as I talk about this right now.

DAN: Hoo. Well, strength isn't the word for it. I'll say that much. [EV’YAN LAUGHS] It's not about strength. It's about like, can you shut down your emotions for long enough to be able to answer people's questions?

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: ‘Cause you become a teacher to people, you know? EV'YAN: Right.

DAN: And that's what's so difficult about coming out and having to come out over and over is like, you don't really get to just come out, you know,? There are so few scenarios... These scenarios do exist, but there are so few scenarios where you're like, “Oh, nonbinary. Yeah. She and they,” and people are like, “Okay, cool,” and then you move on, and your whole night is great, and everyone sees you for who you are. Like, those scenarios are few and far between. So it's hard to be like, “Okay, am I...” I’ve thought about this with my fucking neighbor. I wanna be like, “Those aren't my pronouns,” but I also am gonna have to explain--

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: --so fucking much that it's not worth it. I will become less safe. EV'YAN: Right.

DAN: So it's like, it's complicated. Also, I don't know how y'all feel about stuff. Like, I'm not trying to...

EV'YAN: Right.

DAN: I don't know anything about you-- EV'YAN: Mm-hmm.

DAN: So I am not trying to like, put myself in a really difficult position. And then I think about it with my dad. Like, the reason I haven't had this huge conversation with him is because I feel like there are so many things I don't know what to say about. Like, how do I explain I love when he calls me daughter, but like, if you're talking to other people, can say ‘kid’ or whatever?

EV'YAN: Right.

DAN: Which, you know, or like... I don't know, it's confusing, ‘cause I'm like, I like ‘daughter’ and I like ‘he’ and I like ‘they’ and I like ‘boyfriend’ and I like... [LAUGHS] I'm like, I have a lot of different things that I like and it's not easy.

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: It's not easy to just click into. But I've had really great experiences with my dad where we'll be talking about a friend and we'll be like, blah, blah, blah, they whatever whatever, and he'll just say ‘they’. Like, he doesn't even... You know, he doesn't even ask like, “Oh, like, what should I say? What should I call..” Like, he will slip right into it and whatever, but for some reason, I'm just like... I feel like I'm showing up to a test not prepared or something.

EV'YAN: Yeah, yeah.

DAN: It's like, I don't have all the answers, you know?

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: I feel really confident in who I am, and the second that you're like, “Okay, but you said that I could say this though,” then I'm like, “Wait!”

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: I don't wanna.. Like, ah! I don't know, which--

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: --I don't think that's how it'll go with my dad, and, you know, I think we would probably both have better conversations than whatever we could imagine because I know how you and I can imagine worst-case scenarios. [LAUGHS]

EV'YAN: God, we’re so good at that. DAN: We can do a really good job of it. EV'YAN: We’re so good at that.

DAN: We’re really super good at that. EV'YAN: We should get paid to do that. DAN: We should really get paid-- EV'YAN: Oh my god.

DAN: --to imagine worst-case scenarios.

EV'YAN: Mm-hmm.

DAN: That's a good idea, actually.

EV'YAN: Yeah. I mean, I would love to get to a point where I feel super comfortable talking to my family about this. I mean, it was difficult for me to talk to Jonathan about it, you know?

DAN: Right. But that went well, right?

EV'YAN: It did go well. I mean, there was confusion, of course, because I think that there's just so much ignorance about nonbinary experience, trans experience, that I mean, I think he was like, “Oh my god. Do you wanna become a man? Are you gonna change your name?” And I'm like, “No, no, no, no, no!”

DAN: Right.

EV'YAN: “It's not like that. You know, that's not my experience, but I'm just trying to explain to you how I feel and stuff like that.” And yeah, the experiences with him have been really well and I feel really safe and held with him. But that's my partner, you know?

DAN: He's also queer. Yeah.

EV'YAN: Right, and he understands. I mean, he was right there reading these gender theory books that I was reading too.

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: So I mean, he gets it, you know? And he has friends who are trans and, you know, he has a sibling who is nonbinary. So like, this is something that he is used to. So yeah, I'm really grateful that he's been able to meet me where I'm at with this and not make it into a big deal or, I don't know, that... Basically I'm grateful that he's not transphobic. That’s what I’m saying.

DAN: Right. Gosh, low bar, but yeah.

EV'YAN: Yeah. [LAUGHS] I know, right? But you'd be surprised.

DAN: Yeah, for real, for real. Hoo. I mean, I think the other thing that's interesting to talk about is the fact that so many trans people have like, new families, you know?

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: And it's like, no disrespect to a blood family or whatever, but I don't speak to anyone I'm blood-related to. When I talk about my Dad, I'm talking about the guy who adopted me in my 20s, my mom's third husband. Like, he's raised me more than anyone, you know? My mom and he got married when I was like, 13 or something like that? So definitely most father figure in my life. We're not blood-related and I really don't talk to anyone I'm blood-related to. Like, my family has been chosen slowly but surely over the past like, maybe 20 years?

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: Family is a different thing when you're trans and when you're queer. There are so many people that it's like... I can't tell you how many people I've met for the first time and within two hours, we're like, talking about how we don't have a family or whatever. [LAUGHS]

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: We're talking about like, “Oh, yeah. I don't speak to those people,” and like, you know, you move on to a different subject. But most queer and trans people I know have a brand new spanking family because safety’s the number one priority.

EV'YAN: Yeah. And maybe that's why I'm not feeling like, an impulse to talk to my own family about it--

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: --because I already get my familial needs met with other people who I know are safe and who I know aren't gonna ask me, you know, invasive questions about, “Why is it that way? Or, “That’s really con--”

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: Like, I don't... Yeah, I just don't think that it's... It's not necessary, you know? But I'm also like, “What would it be like if I could hear my mom use they pronouns for me? That would be pretty cool.”

DAN: Yeah, it was really exciting when I got a piece of mail that was addressed to Dan Owens-Reid.

EV'YAN: Aw.

DAN: I was like, “Eek!” I was like, “Oh my god, my dad knows my name is Dan,” which of course he does, ‘cause I've like, said it or whatever, [LAUGHS] but I'm like, “Oh my god, what?”

EV'YAN: Yeah!

DAN: It's just... It feels so good to be seen and it feels really good to be seen by people who’ve known you for a long time.

EV'YAN: Yeah, yeah.

DAN: ‘Cause at the end of the day it's like... It's not this clear and I don't wanna like, place this pressure on people, but it's really like, you've been misgendered for 33 years by these people, you know what I mean? And at no fault to them whatsoever.

EV'YAN: Sure, right.

DAN: I mean, they had a little bit to do with your brainwashing, but whatever. [LAUGHS] We'll let that slide. We’ll let it slide, we'll let it slide. But it's a different thing.

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: It's different from being misgendered by a neighbor who I've lived next to for a year. Like, it just is different, and--

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: --that makes it way harder, ‘cause there's a lot more riding on that, you know? ‘Cause if you come out to someone and it doesn't go well, it's like, how quick do you move to like, “Okay, this is not a safe person for me to be around ever.”

EV'YAN: Mm-hmm.

DAN: That's a lot. That's a lot, and we have to make those decisions all the time. It's really, really hard to be like, “Am I ready to make that decision about my fuckin’ mom?”

EV'YAN: Yeah, yeah. Family is hard, I mean, all the way around, you know? And with stuff like this, it's even harder.

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: It's even harder.

DAN: It really is.

EV'YAN: So let's talk about sex.

DAN: Okay.

EV'YAN: How do you feel your gender identity shows up in sex for you?

DAN: My gender identity has been really, really affirmed in sex, and in a couple of different ways. I mean, after I got out of my last big relationship, I just kind of had like a... Why was I about to say shopping spree? But yeah, I mean, whatever. I was like, picking up dudes on Tinder, I guess, [LAUGHS] so I was having a shopping spree. But I was really sexually free I feel like for the first time in my life ever, and I was also very gender free for the first time in my life ever. And I remember after I'd gotten a new apartment, I’d gone on a literal actual shopping spree and got a bunch of clothes and I like, sent all these pictures to the group chat, and they were just like... They were like, “Oh my god, you look so good, you look so happy.”

EV'YAN: Aw.

DAN: And also like, “It makes me really sad to see that like, you had to wait to get out of the relationship to buy all these things.”

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: And I remember one of my friends talking to me about that and being like, “I was so excited! And I also just got so sad because I realized the gravity of like, how you were held back,” and that made me feel really seen too. But that summer was like, a fucking summer of fun! Like, I was just, you know, sluttin’ around and whatever and I was like, “I am bisexual! Like, what the fuck is everybody talking about? Like, I'm bisexual. I like having sex with all kinds of people, with all types of genitals, with all kinds of like, vibes. You know, I'm into people.” And I was in a... I had a Friends with Benefits relationship with someone for a few months where she had also just gotten out of a big relationship, so we were very exploratory and our gender energies were pretty matched as well, so there was no explaining myself at all and there was no like... I just didn't feel held back and I didn't feel like... I couldn't have had sex with that person and fit into a role, because neither one of us were like, you know, on the binary line, [LAUGHS] one or the other. We both had very balanced gender energies so there was no, “You're this role and I'm this role.” It was a very roleless sexual relationship. And from that friends with benefits moment, I got into a relationship that I'm still in today that was like, the most seen I've ever felt in my life. And like, we were in bed together and she asked me if it was okay to touch my chest, and I'd never been asked that before, and I was like, “What the fuck is this question about? [EV’YAN LAUGHS] Like, oh my god! Like, I don't... What? Yes? Like, why? Yeah, okay, yes? What?” It was just so... It was such a question for me, but I didn't even realize that in the moment. It was way later. And throughout this relationship it's like I've just realized more and more about who I am because of the way we have sex, because I'm like, this pansy boy, like froofy ass, you know? And also the other thing is like, I love the fact that I have tits. Like, I love having boy tits and I also feel like they're specifically for sex. Like, it makes me feel weird that people can like, see my titties. When I'm walking outside, [EV’YAN LAUGHS] I'm like, “What? How do you have access to that?” So that's a part of why I like compression.

EV'YAN: Mm.

DAN: I'm just like, “This is for sex only,” and that's why I think I'm interested in this like, Ken crotch too. I'm like, “These are for sex!” [LAUGHS]

EV'YAN: Yeah, yeah.

DAN: And you know, there are plenty of times where I’ll wanna share my sexuality. I put nudes on Instagram all the time, but it's just like... It's when it's up to me. I don't want my genitals out unless it's up to me.

EV'YAN: Mm-hmm.

DAN: So I've learned a lot in this relationship, particularly about the way that I wanna be seen and the way I want my body to be seen and the way that I want my gender expression to be... What's it called when it like, bounces off of something? Like, relayed to people.

EV'YAN: Yeah, yeah.

DAN: Like, so, so much just through sex and through specifically not being able to fit into a role or, you know, being... When you're both vers it's like, who's the top and the bottom? [LAUGHS] Like, nobody ever, you know?

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: So that's been huge, huge for me.

EV'YAN: That's great. DAN: What about you?

EV'YAN: Sex to me feels like the one aspect of gender that isn't really getting talked about right now for me or thought about. That’s not true. It's getting thought about but I'm not necessarily playing with that, I think because of the fact that me and Jonathan aren't living together.

DAN: Oh, yeah.

EV'YAN: So like, you know, it's not at the forefront of my mind because we're not having sex very often [LAUGHS]--

DAN: Right.

EV'YAN: --’cause I'm not seeing him very often. But within myself, I've been thinking about the ways that I can affirm my gender within sex and... Yeah. I don't know what that looks like right now, I think because the binary is so embedded in there that like, I don't know what it's like to have sex with someone who I've had sex with in a particular role for 14 years. Like, I don't know what it looks like to not have sex like that. Not saying that it's not possible, I just don't know what that means or what that looks like at this stage.

DAN: When you talk about it now, does anything come up? Like, do you see any pictures or like, think of any positions or is there any... I don't know. Does anything come up that you're like, maybe this is how it would look? Or is it a completely blank slate?

EV'YAN: Well, you know, I am... You just used the term ‘vers’ and I'm like, “Oh! I think that would be really fun to play with,” you know?

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: I think the thing that really trips me up about this is... And we talked about this [LAUGHS] in our faux podcast that never got recorded, but like, this notion that there are two ways to have sex: The masculine way and the feminine way.

DAN: Right.

EV'YAN: And I don't wanna have sex in a masculine way. DAN: Mm.

EV'YAN: I'm not interested in masculine, cis male sex. Like, I don't... That, to me, doesn't feel good.

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: It actually feels traumatizing and triggering for me. And I think that's where I kind of get a little confused ‘cause I'm like, “Okay, if it's...” And again, it's that goddamn binary. [LAUGHS] Like, “If it's not this, then it's that.” But I don't want it to be that.

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: So like... Yeah, the notion of being vers, or rather like, sort of being in that gray area really interests me but I don't know what that looks like.

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: And I haven't really seen that either.

DAN: No, I haven't either. I mean, I was just... Porn came up in my mind as we were talking about this--

EV'YAN: Right.

DAN: --and like, something that... Porn is so detrimental in so many ways-- EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: --and also so beautiful in so many ways, but like, you know, we saw the same kinda porn growing up no matter what we tried, and there was a point where I started to watch... Specifically if you search ‘bisexual M/M/F threesome’, those are the porns--

EV'YAN: I love those. Yeah.

DAN: Yeah, those are the porns where you can see the gender energy shift a little bit. EV'YAN: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

DAN: Sometimes.

EV'YAN: [LAUGHS] Yeah, sometimes.

DAN: Sometimes.

EV'YAN: Not all the time.

DAN: Yeah, you really gotta search, but it's like, sometimes you can tell if someone's a little fruiter or... I don't know. There's something about it where it's like, because there are more people involved and because you know that like, the dicks are gonna touch at some point. I don't know how to phrase that. [EV’YAN LAUGHS] Just ‘cause you know the dicks are gonna touch at some point, you know there is not like, a masculine disgust with the idea of being vers--

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: --which is in a lot of porn. So there's something about it that has made me kind of loosen up and be like, “Oh, okay. Well, I can be a top and still stick my butt out and get a spank or whatever.” I don't know, like--

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: I don't know how to phrase it, but there's like, some... We just need more. We need better porns, I guess.

EV'YAN: Yeah, we need better representation, you know? DAN: Mm-hmm.

EV'YAN: ‘Cause I mean, I’ve actually... As we're having this conversation, I realized that I'm not really watching porn right now.

DAN: Me either, yeah.

EV'YAN: And it's not because I don't like porn. I just... I'm not seeing porn that really affirms my gender or the sort of gender experiences that I wanna have in sex. It actually just continues to reinforce the binary. Even when I do search ‘lesbian porn’, it's done in a very masculine, you know, male gaze-y kind of way--

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: --and that's not what I want. That's not what I'm looking for. And also, you know, the type of porn that I like has changed.

DAN: Same.

EV'YAN: I'm not really interested in seeing... Like, I don't really care about the people. I care about the genitals, you know?

DAN: Me too! Yeah.

EV'YAN: Like, I care about... Like, I'm really fascinated by just close-ups of genitals just doing the sexy stuff.

DAN: Yeah, like throbbing, squirting.

EV'YAN: Love that! Love that.

DAN: Yeah, same, same.

EV'YAN: I don't care about the faces that the dude makes when he's having... I don't care about any--

DAN: Turn the sound off.

EV'YAN: Yeah. [LAUGHS]

DAN: Yeah, that's why I'm into... I told you, I’m into animated shit now. EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: Like, that's... And I never in my whole life even knew anything, but it's like, you know, of course the whole internet is like, “Hentai, hentai, hentai!” And I'm like, “Well, let me look it up. Let me see what's going on.” And I love the shit. Like, I love the tentacle porn and all that shit, but more than anything what I love is like, the POV of being inside a puss--

EV'YAN: Yes.

DAN: --as it’s like, bonk, bonk. I'm like, ah! EV'YAN: Right.

DAN: ‘Cause that's also what I'm picturing if I have like, you know, my... Again, I was like, “Am I allowed to say this [EV’YAN LAUGHS] on the sex podcast?” But like, if I have my finger inside a place that I can feel tightening and loosening, I'm like, that's what I'm fucking going for.

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: That's what I wanna feel, and you could feel that in... You know, I could put my finger in a butthole or a puss or a mouth or whatever. Like, I'm really all about the sensations.

EV'YAN: Mm-hmm.

DAN: So for me it's like, you can get... Most of my sex is like, rubbing my face on a body. Like, it's not even as simple... It couldn't be defined in porn, really, I guess.

EV'YAN: Right, right. Yeah, I think that's something that I've been waking up to as well, realizing that like, I am definitely asexual and how that shows up for me as my sex looking more sensual--

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: --and my turn-ons being more sensually-focused-- DAN: Yes.

EV'YAN: --as opposed to like, genitally-focused.

DAN: Mm-hmm.

EV'YAN: And I mean, yeah. All of this stuff is so intertwined with my gender and the kind of sex that I have, and I'm actually like... I'm really looking forward to when Jonathan moves in because I think this is going to... Like, for me, that's the next step, you know?

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: That's the one area that I haven't really been able to explore because he hasn't been here--

DAN: Right.

EV'YAN: --and I want to be able to figure out like, who am I as a sexually liberated nonbinary person?

DAN: Ay! [LAUGHS] There we go! There we fucking go! EV'YAN: What is that? Like, what does that look like? DAN: That's so fun! That's really nice to say.

EV'YAN: Yeah..

DAN: Wow. How many sexually liberated nonbinary people are there? EV'YAN: So many, god dammit! There's so many!

DAN: Let’s talk to ‘em all.

EV'YAN: Let's talk to them all. Well, actually, that brings me to what I wanted to ask you. So I'm gonna change the name of this podcast.

DAN: Mm-hmm.

EV'YAN: I'm about to do a pretty... it's a pretty big thing. You know, I've had this name for six years. [LAUGHS]

DAN: Yeah, shit, I was about to say.

EV'YAN: And I just... I don't know. I've been thinking a lot about what the future of this podcast is gonna be, and while I don't necessarily feel like I'm going to do a harsh pivot to now talking about, I don't know, beets. [LAUGHS]

DAN: Right.

EV'YAN: I'm literally staring at a huge bowl of beets right now. That's the only thing that I thought of. Like, I'm not gonna do a harsh pivot like that, but I am wondering, you know, what the next iteration of this podcast is gonna be, of my work in general is gonna be--

DAN: Mm-hmm.

EV'YAN: --and particularly what this iteration of my work is gonna be when I feel more included in it, ‘cause I think that for the last year or so I haven't felt included within my own work. So I wanna know from you, like... I don't know. Do you have any advice for me at this stage?

DAN: You're only going to expand and explode the more you lean into who you are and express that authentically, and I can say that with a guarantee ‘cause you've seen it happen over the past two years, you know?

EV'YAN: Yeah, you’re right.

DAN: And it's happened with as you’ve claimed your blackness, as you've claimed your nonbinary-ness, as you've claimed every single part of you and expressed it more authentically, everything grows. Your followers grow, you get more money, you get like, cool projects you've always wanted to have.

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: In a very business sense, the absolute best thing you can do is have a podcast where you're talking to people about what you wanna talk to them about, and if it's beets, it’s beets. [LAUGHS]

EV'YAN: It's not gonna be about beets.

DAN: It’s not gonna be beets. But also, the other thing I would say is so much of what you want to talk to people about, based on what I know from our conversations, still is so in line with this shit.

EV'YAN: It is, yeah.

DAN: Like, even if it's not specifically like, “What was your journey?” Or, you know, “How did you become sexually liberated?” It's like, your curiosity just leans in the way of self and self expression and sensuality. Like, you wanna know if someone's having good sex as much as you wanna know when was the last time they got a hug, you know?

EV'YAN: Yeah.

DAN: So it's very... I think... I mean, I don't know why every single person listens to this podcast, but I don't think it's all because of sexual liberation.

EV'YAN: I don’t think so either.

DAN: I think people are interested in who you're talking to and I think they're interested in your curiosity and I think they're interested in the way that you prioritize self expression--

EV'YAN: Mm.

DAN: --which happens to be through sensuality and sexuality because of the work that you've done, but I don't think it has to be so focused on that. Do you feel a pressure to have like, a podcast about this that covers these questions or?

EV'YAN: No, I don't. And actually, when I think about this podcast like, you know, it started out about being sexual liberation, but I mean, I've talked about so many things on this podcast, you know?

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: I mean, most of them relating to sex, but I mean, they're all like a hop, jump, and a skip away from other things too, you know? Lke, I don't think that it's... I've really put myself in the brand of sex educator so hardcore that I haven't been able to talk about the things that I wanna talk about--

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: --but I do think that this name change is going to give me even more spaciousness to explore the other expressions and experiences that can be had that are adjacent to sexuality. Like, this is the first... Can you believe this is the first conversation that I've had about gender on my podcast?

DAN: Wow.

EV'YAN: I mean, we've certainly touched on it a little bit, but I've never had a whole episode devoted to gender and I feel really grateful. I mean, I'm a little embarrassed that it took me this long, but I'm also really grateful to have had this conversation with you today because I think that any other time I would’ve tried to have a conversation about gender, it would not have sounded like this.

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: And even when I knew what I knew about my own gender, I would not have been in a place to be able to be like, “Well, yeah, my gender is not not a woman,” [LAUGHS] you know?

DAN: Yeah.

EV'YAN: That just would not have been an option for me. DAN: Yeah, yeah.

EV'YAN: So like, I know that it took me a while to get here, and I'm talking not just about this podcast but also just about my own journey of realizing like, holy shit, this is who I am, and this is who I've always been, and thank God I'm finally giving myself space and freedom to explore this part of myself. Yeah, I think that that is just... Whatever happens, whatever this podcast [LAUGHS] is named, that will always be the point, that will always be the purpose.

DAN: Yeah. Yeah.

EV'YAN: Well, shit. [LAUGHS] I'm just like... I just had this moment where I'm like, “Holy shit. I just came out as nonbinary.” [LAUGHS]

DAN: Yeah, you’ve--

EV'YAN: It is now public.

DAN: It's now public, yeah.

EV'YAN: It is now like, everyone--

DAN: I told somebody in an email today. [LAUGHS] EV'YAN: Oh my god! Yay!

DAN: Yeah, I did! Somebody was like, throwing around the W word [EV’YAN LAUGHS] like they couldn't get it off their minds or whatever, and I was like, “Just so you know, Ev’Yan identifies as nonbinary, so if that's gonna ruin your women's festival, then let us know. Thanks,” or whatever. That's not exactly what I said, but--

EV'YAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

DAN: But yeah, it's... Happy Nonbinary Day. EV'YAN: Thank you!

DAN: Happy coming out day.

EV'YAN: Thank you. This feels really special and I'm just really, really glad to have had you. Like, you have been such a mentor to me through this whole process. Not even just like, a good friend, but you really have been a mentor to me and I don't think... I'm not saying that I don't think that I wouldn't have come out at this time if it weren't for you, I just don't think that it would’ve looked like this. I think there might’ve been more shame attached to it, I think that there might’ve been more confusion attached to it, and one of the reasons why I've really enjoyed our conversations is that like, you’re very affirming. I just wanna say thank you for like, helping make this happen, you know?

DAN: It was such a pleasure. EV'YAN: You're like my gender doula.

DAN: I know, right? [EV’YAN LAUGHS] Has anybody else ever doula-ed a doula before? [LAUGHS] Thank you for having me.

EV'YAN: Yeah, thank you so much for being here with me through all of this. And yeah, everyone. I guess stay tuned.

[ SOME FINAL THOUGHTS FROM EV'YAN ]

So, there it is, y'all. The Sexually Liberated Woman is. . . not a woman. She, they, I am non-binary. And I'm going to take a little time to hibernate with all of this information and continue to figure out what all this means while doing some deep thinking about what the next iteration of this podcast will look like.

But before I go, there is one more thing I wanted to do. You might remember that in the beginning of this episode, Dan turned a question over to me about what my nonbinary-ness means to me and how it is I see myself as a nonbinary person. And I didn't end up answering that question, I actually dodged it twice because I didn't really know how to answer that question at the time. It’s been hard to conceptualize and put words to my gender as I've been sorting out my gender feels because it's all so messy and raw for me, and I don’t think it’ll never not be messy or raw. But here, I'd like to try.

Being nonbinary to me means that I am honoring the full expression of myself, of the masculine and feminine qualities within me, and the other energies who have no names but make up important pieces of who I am—finally. Being nonbinary means that I am actively rejecting the roles and rules put upon me by myself and others based on the gender I was assigned as, that I give myself permission and space to move outside of the rigid box marked F so that I can experience every nuance about me, even the ones that I've been taught not to claim or celebrate within myself.

Being nonbinary to me means flow, like being able to cycle through that vast, mysterious circle of gender energy that Dan was talking about on a daily, hourly, minute-to-minute basis, and giving myself space and affirmation to shift with that energy with my entire body, with every part of me that can be expressed.

My gender is light femme, soft masc. It’s ephemeral, transient, in motion. It’s a foreign language that lives in my bones that my tongue is trying to remember how to speak. It’s the realization that there has never been anything delicate about me, but I am still soft somehow.

My gender is a direct reflection of the many nonbinary people that I look up to, people that have helped me come into my own, who have showed me what is possible outside of being white or androgynous. My nonbinariness is Black, it's mutable, it’s intuitive, it's inner joy, it’s pleasure-centered.

My gender is not aligned with or adjacent to woman or lady or female or Miss or 100% feminine. My gender occupies a grey space of fluidity and questioning and curated chaos that I am learning to lean into and trust. My gender is both/and.

I actually heard Trans activist Sally Goldner say recently that there are at least 7 billion genders in the world, one at any given moment for everyone on the planet and then we move to another moment and there could be even more gender after that, and on and on it goes. I like that a lot because it makes a lot of sense to me. I contain multitudes—so many that one word (man, woman, even nonbinary) is not able to contain me. And no one word ever should.

As for coming out—I mean, me coming out like this means that I finally get to have how I feel and see myself energetically on the inside match how I desire to be fully seen and received on the outside—in my work, in my relationships, in how I move through the world, and that feels really good. It also makes a lot of sense why I’ve had such a complicated relationship with this podcast over the last couple of years—even in these last 6 months. I mean, it’s true that 2020 has been ridiculous, but I have to admit that I’ve been low-key avoiding this podcast. To come on here as “the sexually liberated woman” over and over again meant that I was going against who I was. So to know that and to have the opportunity to make something new, something that includes me and who I am in it, that really excites me.

So, okay! Wow. I'm nonbinary. Pretty cool, eh?

And the next time you hear my voice or see me pop up in your feed, it'll be with brand new digs, a brand new name, new purpose—but always with the same intention: healing, liberation, and pleasure.

I’ll see you soon.

[ CREDITS ]

This podcast is created and hosted by me, Ev’Yan Whitney. Find me on my website evyanwhitney.com and on Instagram at @evyan.whitney to keep up with me and my work—even more so now that I am going through a podcast transition.

If you want to keep even more in touch, you can sign up for my newsletter at evyanwhitney.com/newsletter.

This podcast has been made possible with community support from each one of my very special patrons on Patreon. I really really appreciate you all, especially with all of the shifts and changes going on on my end. Thank you for sticking with me and for supporting me so loyally.

Thanks so much for being here with me, and I’ll see you in the next episode.

Bye!