Episode 51: So, You Wanna Be a Sex Educator (with Cameron Glover)
[ INTRO ]
Hey everyone! I'm Ev'Yan Whitney, and welcome to The Sexually Liberated Woman.
There is a question that I get constantly. I get asked this question the most out of all the questions anyone can ask me. And that question is this: How can I become a sex educator? And the people asking this question, they don't just want to know how to become a sex educator from a general sense. They want to know how they can do what I do specifically, like how to become a sexuality doula, how to lead people out of sexual shame and into their erotic power with these very specific methodologies and frameworks that I use with my clients and students. And I think it's really flattering! I know that people see my work and are inspired by it, and they become attracted to it. Actually, many of the clients I've worked with in the past have decided to enter this field because they were so transformed by the work we did together, and they want to help others in the same way. And I love that because we need more sex educators out there, we need more people doing this important work of not just sexual liberation, but body liberation, gender liberation, liberation that extends to all areas of our lives, by way of starting at the sexual. So naturally, when I get asked this question of "How do I become a sex educator like you?", I'm thrilled because our world will be better served if more of us take up this cause and do this work of unshaming, empowering, reclaiming, and decolonizing our sexuality.
But here's the thing: I don't think that the people who asked this question are prepared for the answer that I ultimately give them. Because I think what they're looking for from me is a formula that they can follow, a sort of map that I can give them that shows them, okay, this is how I got started, these are the books that I read, these are the people I studied under, and then after I did that studying, these are the values that drive the philosophies and practices that I facilitate within my work. Like I think that people are hoping that I give them all of that tea. Instead, I give them an answer that I actually spelled out in great detail recently on Twitter—which no other I am not a Twitter bitch yet. I mean, I really only use the platform to make tweets for the sole purpose of posting them on my Instagram. But you can follow me there if you want. I'm @evyanwhitney, no period.
Anyway, since we're already on the subject, I'm just gonna read the tweets because they beautifully spell out my answer to that question. Okay, here they are.
People always ask me, "How do I become a sex educator like you?" And I always want to answer that question by asking another question: Why exactly do you want to be a sex educator? And what are you actively doing right now to decolonize your own sexuality? A lot of people think that sex education is easy, particularly because of what they observe on the internet. The sensual selfies, the dildo collections, the overuse of certain words like pleasure, sensuality orgasm, even healing, and they try to replicate it because they want the fun, free and flashy parts of sex education. But sex education is not always fun or pretty. It is hard, grueling work, not because of what we do for others, but what we're ultimately healing, challenging, changing, decolonizing within ourselves. Real sex education starts with you, first and foremost. And I'll be frank, many of y'all aren't doing that deep work. What you're doing is observing bits and pieces of what pioneers within this field have done—people who have been doing this for decades—taking what you deem fun and easy to digest, the things that can quickly be touted as being "sex posi", and then replicating it (sometimes straight up stealing it) for your own gain. And it shows.
People (your clients, your followers) are often intuitive enough to see these bastardizations. They can trace the origins, they can sense that you don't yet have the depth that gets accumulated over years and years and years of inner work to help lead them through their own traumas and reclamations. When you skip the deep work, you do us all a disservice, including yourself. We don't need any more yoni egg peddlers or dildo slingers. We don't need another sex position book or a course on how to have the perfect oral sex mouth choreography. We need people whose sex education and sexual healing involves actively dismantling deeply entrenched systems of oppression that are driving the need for sex education in the first place. And many of y'all don't have that range. And it's understandable. To do that work is hard, frustrating, tiring, scary. It involves getting super familiar with our trauma, our internalized isms, with the purity, whorephobic culture, all of our sexual identities have been founded on. To do that work for our selves is grueling, nevermind to lead other people through it. It isn't fun, and it's very uncute.
But true sexual liberation goes beyond sensual selfies and the Instagrammable videos of one dancing with dildos, literally anyone can do that. It's about getting to the root of how white supremacist patriarchal capitalism dislocates us from our power, our pleasure, our bodily autonomy. And it's only in working to excavate that root and tending to our personal healing that lasting sexual liberation can happen. We need sex education, because those systems of oppression exist. So the work must always have a foundation in the commitment of uprooting those systems. Otherwise, what is it for?
All that I'm talking about here has nothing to do with academia or degrees, with certificates or thick books, though those can help. This is about core values. This is about personal accountability and deep study that can only be found in the very personal journey of our own sexual healing. Anyone can read a book or talk about orgasms. But do they embody the work? Do they put their body where their politics are? Do they walk their talk? And if so, what specific actions are they taking within that walk? I implore budding sex educators to interrogate within themselves why they're feeling led to this field, to really pick apart the reasons why, and to ask themselves how they're going to contribute to dismantling the isms within their sex education work.
Also give props and gratitude to the sex educators you're inspired by and have been out here doing this unglamorous work for decades. They have pioneered these paths with their philosophies and frameworks that you are tripping over yourself to walk on. Never forget that you wouldn't even be contemplating getting into sex education if it weren't for them. And lastly, don't judge a person's sexual education prowess. By Their follower count. Some of the best sex educators in the world are the ones you've never heard of.
Whew! Okay, let that soak in for a little bit.
I know all of that was really fiery. And honestly, it's meant to be. When I wrote these tweets, it came from a deep frustration of seeing people actively engaging in sex educational work without it being tethered to this real and necessary work of decolonizing themselves and dismantling systems of oppression within their own practices. And that's not to say that sex education has to be drudgery and hard. There's absolutely space for play and pleasure, but to not be rooted in the reason why that play and pleasure matters and why that play and pleasure is being demonized policed politicized in the first place— it just, it frustrates me.
Anyway, I'm bringing all of this up not to rant, but because I've got a very special conversation for you today, all about being a sex educator—like how to get into this field, the things you need to know, and some of the important things to remember as you not only educate yourself, but also bring healing to your own sexuality so that it can go to serve your sexual practices. And to do all of that, I've brought on my boo and colleague, Cameron Glover, who is a certified sex educator herself, that also helps folks build a business within the sexuality profession. So not only is she with it when it comes to sex, she's also the person to call if you're ready to begin working for yourself as a sex educator. So hire her, people.
She and I touch on a lot in this conversation and honestly, we walked away feeling like a part two is in order to really get into the nuts and bolts of it qhat having a sexuality educational business looks like. But for now, I think this is a really great place to start for folks who are curious about getting into this profession. And stick around til the end because Cameron has some really, really helpful resources for you to dive into.
Okay, I've been talking long enough. Let's get into the conversation.
[ INTERVIEW WITH CAMERON ]
Ev'Yan Whitney
Hi, Cameron! How are you?
Cameron Glover
I'm so good. I'm so happy to be here.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes, I'm so happy to be here with you too. I have been wanting to have a conversation about this very thing for a long time. And you are literally the perfect person to talk about this stuff.
Cameron Glover
Thank you.
Ev'Yan Whitney
So before we get into it, I would love for you to just, like, introduce yourself to everyone. Tell us who who you are and what you do
Cameron Glover
Yeah. So I am Cameron Glover. I'm a certified sex educator, a business coach for sex educators and a podcaster as well. I host Sex Ed In Color, which is a show where I interview sexuality, professionals of color. And we just talk about our experiences in the field. So I do a lot and I'm really passionate about helping sex educators and sexuality professionals to monetize their expertise and build sustainable businesses in the field. I just feel really, really strongly about that. Yeah, and so I'm just really excited to be here, because I love Ev'Yan this is really important too. So I'm just I'm really thrilled to be here.
Ev'Yan Whitney
I'm so happy you're here too. I mean, the question I get almost like, twice a week is, "I want to be a sex educator. I want to do what you do Ev'Yan. How do you get into it?" And I was saying this in my Twitter thread, like, I think that people think that sex educators, sexuality professionals are, you know, we're doing this work and it's so easy, and it's so fun and there's dildos and vibrators everywhere. And I think that depending on who you are and what your modality is, that may be true. But I know for me, my work is hard. It is grueling, and it requires a lot of—it requires me to show up fully in my own sexual liberation and healing journey. So yeah, I wonder just as I've been prattling on about this, if what you have to say about that.
Cameron Glover
Whew! Okay, so, um, for those listening, I'm about to shake the table like quite a lot.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Shake the table!
Cameron Glover
I just like, first of all, the thing I want to get off my chest is not everyone is a sex educator, and that's perfectly fine. So I feel really really strongly about the ownership of titles and the things that we identify with, right. So I think that anybody that listens to Sex Ed In Color, I always start off each episode with the guests asking how they identify. And that's really important to me because I think that there's a real power in claiming identities for yourself and speaking from yourself, from your perspective, rather than someone else speaking for you, especially for people of color and more specifically for Black folks and Black femmes. So I think that connecting that to the work that we do, I feel so strongly, especially with online culture, and like social media, about the title, sex educator, right and the specific ways that we talk about our work is so important, and so varied. And what grinds my gears specifically is when folks just think that "Oh, you talk about sex online, so you are a sex educator" and that's, it's not only ridiculous, but it's also really, really dangerous. Because I fully believe that to be a sex educator, you have to have training, you have to have some sort of—you can't be speaking from your own experience solely, right? Because the things that may work for you may not work for everybody else. And you can't just do things willy nilly. Like there's guidelines, there's a standard, right, doing the work because at the end of the day, it's work. So I get really charged by this idea that like just anybody can be a sex educator. And all you need is just to be talking about your own experiences of sex online. Like, you can absolutely do that. And there's a validity in that. But that's the title of sex educators specifically, it means something to call myself that and like even further right to call myself a certified sex educator, and I had a colleague actually use like the letters, like, see "CES" like after my name and I was like, "Oh, I like that!" And that really like, affirmed to me like, this is real work that I'm doing. Like, I earned the title to call myself a sex educator, certified or not, because I put in the time and the effort and I've done the work and I'm still doing the work. So I think it's really, really important that people understand the specificity of language, and not to put a label on someone just from what you think they are, but leaving them space to like, claim titles that fit them and respecting that.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, one thing that you keep mentioning in this conversation right now is "doing the work." And I feel like that is something that a lot of people say, but like, what does that even mean, you know? And so like, I'm curious from you like, What does doing the work mean? Because from my perspective, anybody can read a book. Anybody can go to school, anybody can, you know, get those degrees certificates or whatever. But I think what you're touching on here is more than that, like it's more than just the certificates. It's also about you doing your own internal work as well. So yeah, maybe speak on that a little bit.
Cameron Glover
Oh, so much. So we go way more in depth with this. I have a livestream on my Instagram about what you need to know if you want to become a certified sex educator that I recommend folks checking out. But yeah, I don't necessarily believe that you have to—well, I do not believe that you need to be certified to be a sex educator. So the distinction for me is that you can get training in modalities that exists outside of like the traditional academia system, which is very much rooted in racism and classism, in all these oppressive systems that keep a lot of folks out. And again, what folks don't even know is that most certification programs that exist, and—I'll just speak specifically within the US because that's where we're based—is that most certification programs, they require you to have a bachelor's degree to even be considered to go through that process. So even from the jump there are educators who have decades worth of knowledge because they've worked in retail, they've, like, done the coaching and counseling with their own communities. But because they may not have gone to undergrad, they don't have a graduate degree of any kind, like, they don't have a bachelor's degree, then suddenly they're not worthy. And that's something I feel very strongly about. So when I talk about doing the work for me, it does go so much deeper than going to school because it's also like, the work of sex education, when it comes down to it is about sexual wellness and healing, right? And what that looks like is doing that deep work with yourself but also with other people. And you can read all the books in the world, right? And you can memorize the theory, but the best teacher is going to be experience. And yes, you need to know the best practices of how to work with clients, how to teach about anatomy, how bodies work, how, how things happen, right? But books aren't going to teach you everything. School is not going to teach you everything. And so to be a sex educator, I think that you really have to deeply understand what is available and what the limitations of that training leaves, because there's still so much that gets unaddressed and so many people that get left behind, even within sex education. And that's a whole separate conversation of talking about, you know, the mandates and the regulations if folks are continuing within schools. And even independent sex educators too, we have a whole host of challenges that keep us from being able to give people accessible, inclusive sex education. Not even talking about the criteria, but also like, the fact that platforms like Instagram, like Facebook, don't understand the validity of sexual education and that they just see sex bad, therefore, you are banned, right? And what that means is like, accessibility is now cut in half. The people that are most impacted are the people that need it the most and the folks that are most vulnerable because they can't necessarily afford to, like, be in other places and diversify in different ways. So yeah, there's there's so much that goes into the work itself. And I really feel strongly about encouraging folks to look beyond just getting certified. And I think actually that's where a lot of emerging sexuality professionals get stuck because they only think about certification as a hurdle or like, "I'll get started with doing the work once I get certified or once I graduated." And that's completely backwards. The work does not start when you get certified. The work starts when you commit to doing the work, period.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, what I'm hearing you talk about is like having to find a balance between the certification which is a really important step, if you really want to get into this field and like, be knowledgeable, to be accessible to be inclusive, to challenge The isms that are often within sexuality, sex, things like that. And then balancing that with the experience. Like you can't skew too far on one side. It's like, "Okay, I'm not going to do any certification, I'm just going to only rely on my personal experience," or "I'm just going to do certification. I'm not even really going to do my own inner work. I'm just going to do it by the book." How would you suggest someone go about finding that balance?
Cameron Glover
Hmm, that's a really good question. I didn't touch on this as much so I'll touch on that as well. The "doing the inner work" part for me specifically, the biggest thing that I see with that is like that means challenging the ways that those oppressive systems have been internalized in your own thinking, and your own navigation of the world. So something that I see a lot as well is that a lot of sex educators are still actually upholding these systems of power and privilege and oppression and don't want to talk on it. So like, you know, for example, the constant rooting of gender only existing within the binary. Like, even now, even as we're recording, there's still so many educators and sexuality professionals that are like, men and women men and women, men and women. And I'm just like y'all, get it together. Gender is fluid, gender is expansive, like no. This ain't it.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Right! Or very heterosexual focused. So like, sex between a cis man, a cis woman and that's like, the epitome of sexual liberation or whatever. It's crazy for me me to talk about this because for me, like my brain—I mean, we live in a culture that is within the binary so the binary will never leave me, but within my own work, it's such a foreign concept for me to just think about like, "Sex is sexuality that includes a man and a woman only." Like, it's just crazy.
Cameron Glover
Yeah, I don't even, I don't know what that means. I'm queer as fuck, my partner's super queer. So I'm just like, I don't—the other day I had to count like how many straight friends I even still have at this point. I'm just like—
Ev'Yan Whitney
Oh, that's a fun game! Maybe I should count how many straight friends I have!
Cameron Glover
I got to my brother. And that was like it. Like, maybe this person. No wait!
Ev'Yan Whitney
And I think that's the best example of what you're talking about is that you cannot rely on your experience, because if you are identified as a cis woman, and you only date cis men, and you identify as straight and things like that, your sexual education is going to be really limited. You're going to be leaving out so many people who have way different expressions than you, way different curiosities than you do. And also just speaking on, like, the the trauma factors, you know, of being queer, of being not within the gender binary, of being not monogamous and things like that. There's so many different facets and nuances to sexual education that I don't think that when people are like, "Oh my god, I want a sex educator!" I don't think that people are really taking the time to think about that outside of themselves.
Cameron Glover
Absolutely not. And it's so—sometimes I just want to be like "We can see you! Like, I see you!" You know? And even going deeper than that, right of like, the byproduct of this. Because it's not just that people are being left out. I wish it was just like, "Oh, like, I didn't get picked to play on a playground," right? It's much deeper than that. It's like a systematic oppression of folks in saying that you just don't matter. So like, when I see other educators who like have not done that internal work of checking their own TERF-iness, or checking their own ideas around sexuality only existing within heteronormativity, what that means is that you are now complacent in a system that is bent on the oppression of marginalized communities, period.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes, speak on it!
Cameron Glover
And that is not okay. Because to me, to be a sex educator, it's—first of all, it's not even about me, like, let's just talk about that. To be a sex educator, you are giving people the tools that they need to make the most informed decisions that they can for their own lives. But as an educator, I fully trust that the clients that I work with and the people that I work with, they're, you know, they know what is best for them because they are in their own bodies. They live their lives every single day. I can only speak for myself. experience and share the knowledge and the resources that I have. But at the end of the day, what looks like pleasure and sexual expansion and liberation for you may differ from what that looks like for me. So like, first of all, I need to take myself and my personal feelings out of the equation, if I'm going to be the best sex educator that I can be. So that's first and foremost, right? And then there's also—
Ev'Yan Whitney
I'm just so glad that you're saying all of that. Anyway, continue.
Cameron Glover
Like I'm shaking the table! There's also—and this is also the thing that is just like rooted in it: the internalization of white supremacy in our work. It is everywhere and it is exhausting and I'm tired, so tired of it. And it's so . . . I don't even think frustrating is even the word because at this point, like, the things that I have to deal with, and I'm sure you can relate as well just like being a Black femme educator in this space, we have to deal with all the censorship and all the shadow banning in addition to—you know what, I'ma just shake the table and speak on it. White people thinking that our work is on the community free-for-all table. Like, the methodology and the work that we've spent years developing and working with people, that methodology is not for you to cherry pick and take without accreditation because that's stealing.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes! Oh my god, I'm so glad that you're saying this because this has been one of the points of contention for me about doing this work is, you know, I've been in this game for like over a decade. Like, I've been doing this sex education work before we had this beautiful burst of visibility and community that we now have on platforms like Instagram. But before like when I started, there was, like, no one really talking about this that looked like me. And so me being able to create methodologies and facilitations, workshops and philosophies around my work, literally from the ground up because I didn't have anyone else to look up to, I didn't have any models to like, work my way up off. It grinds my gears whenever I see someone just swoop in, take all of this work that I have cultivated for years and years and years and say, "Well, I'm just gonna take that and I'm gonna build my platform off of it." Like I understand why people do that, because it's really easy, it's really quick, and they can see from my perspective that it's working. But it's stealing and it's also such a disservice to the people that you want to help you know? Like, if you are the person who is doing this theft, you're not serving anyone else. You're a disservice to yourself.
Cameron Glover
Yeah. And I've heard like folks just being like, "Oh, but like, if you don't know, then whatever" or "It's a mistake," and it's just like, if I step on your foot, I still hurt you, right? Whether I did intentionally or not, I still hurt you. So the intent doesn't matter, throw the intent out the window. At the end of the day, this is still part of like, what keeps so many Black folks specifically in the field feeling discouraged and just feeling like "Wow, again, like, we don't matter" because our work is kind of taken from us. Like, folks are scared to like—I did a Q&A the other week and had a question about what keeps you from like, putting your offers out into the world or something like that. And somebody had commented, and I know this person identifies as a Black femme, and she was very straight up just like "Theft." And it's that hard balance too, because it's also like that fear—like even in my own work, I can't let that fear of like somebody's gonna potentially steal my shit. It's probably gonna happen, and I don't even want to like speak that into existence as a possibility. But I just know the reality of like being a Black femme online and like I've had my word plagiarized before even before I got into the field. So like, I know what that looks like and I know how to navigate that and what I need to do for my personal safety. And at the same time, other people need this so like, fuck the violence that like I'm experiencing and that at the end of the day, it's part of the reality of like living in this body and in this experience. And it sucks, and I have my own, like, support systems to help me go through that. But that also cannot stop me from doing this work because I'm meant to do this and I'm going to keep doing it. So, yeah, it just, like, that hard balance to like find. And I think that honest to goodness, having community and having strong support systems has really helped me to do that and having very strong boundaries as well. I love boundaries! So, having all that and very strong self care practices as well really helped to mitigate all that. Especially if there's like people of color that are listening to this right now and kind of feeling like, "I don't know if there's room for me, if there's space for me," there is and there's people that need you. And at the same time, making sure you have all those things is going to help you go a very, very long way.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, I mean, you and I have talked about this a lot in the iMess, as I like to call it. That's short for iMessage. Yeah, we talked about this a lot. How devastating it is to have our work be demeaned, to have it be bastardized, and taken out of context. And I understand—I mean, one of the things that I hear a lot from people that are, you know, doing this kind of theft, you know, the thing that they say is that like, "You know, there are only so many things that like you could potentially own." Like, we're all sort of in this same soup and we're taking from each other and we're all—
Cameron Glover
No, we're not!
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, speak on that. Speak on that.
Cameron Glover
So first of all, I just, it just makes me want to laugh because I'm like, y'all are so quick to take this but like, won't crack open a history book and know where even the field sexuality even stems from. It stems on the bodies of Black and brown folks! Like, read a book, read some of my books! So actually, recommendation if folks are interested to learn more about that, highly recommend reading "Killing the Black Body". I think that it is very important because it highlights specifically the reproductive justice movement and kind of like, how a lot of things that we kind of know in the sexuality field are very much rooted in experimentation and exploitation of Black women specifically. And also "Reproductive Justice: An Introduction" is a really good resource as well. I would start there, but just like, researching your history, learning about folks like Margaret Sanger and just like, the violence that she did and eugenics and how all these things are, like, interconnected. And they're being repeated today as well. There's just like, there is no separation of like, racial justice and sexual liberation because they are interconnected. And so I just feel really—and that's the other thing too, just going back to "the work" right, and why being rooted in just academia is very limiting because the academia is not gonna liberate us. The Ivory Tower is not going to save us, right? And this history is not something that is going to be given to you. You have to take it upon yourself to do the work. As we're recording, there's so many resources now to like, unpacking these systems and why they're harmful. So like, you need to take the initiative as an individual, not even if you just want to be in the field, but just like as a person in the world. It is your duty to do research and to like, start learning about racism, start learning about anti-Blackness and about ableism and transphobia and like gender violence and all these oppressive systems that still interconnects. Because it's not just about— I think there's also this focus in the field of just like, you know, it's about like the dildos and the orgasms. And like, that's cool. Yes, we should talk about the orgasm gap, but we need to talk about the fact that pleasure isn't even seen as a right for a lot of people because they've never seen two Black people having enjoyable pleasurable sex before. They never see folks from marginalized communities just, like, holding each other in an embrace and like having a sexual experience that was not revolving around penis and a vagina and like, I don't know, that like a waterfall in the background or something. Whatever the fuck! There's just there's so much. We haven't even gotten here yet with the visibility part. So like, we can't even—like, fucking getting the sexual liberation, we're still back here. We're stilling having these basic conversations about, like, why there are folks in the field that are still committing acts of violence by saying, you know, my work is only for men and women. So, that's that on that.
Ev'Yan Whitney
I really appreciate you spitting all of that wisdom, because I think that that is the piece that many folks who are considering getting into sexuality education as a career as a business, they're not thinking about. And I think one of the reasons why people are so enchanted by sex education is because—I believe that sex education, and just sex as a whole, is having a moment right now. I think in particular, it's having a moment because a lot of what I'm seeing is a lot of people sort of saying the same thing over and over in regards to sex toys, in regards to orgasm, masturbation, all of these things. Which are all great, like, that's no shade, that stuff is part of sex education. But it's not all of it, you know. And it's really, really easy to say "I want to be a sex educator so I can help people have more orgasms!" Like that's really easy to do. But like, I want more sex educators who are out there doing the decolonization of pleasure, doing the decolonization of gender, of like, different ways to have sex. Like, that shit is what is going to create lasting sexual liberation. Because dildos, orgasms, different ways to, like, you know, penetrate yourself so that you can hit the G-spot—that's not going to get us free.
Cameron Glover
And that's the other thing too about going back to the language part, right? Some educators really feel very strongly about, like, everyone needs to start seeing vulva. Or everyone needs to stop saying vagina and like, demonizing people for whatever words they use for their bits. Listen, you can call your bits flaming hot cheetos for all I care, becsuse they're your bits! Whatever words that you feel good to talk about—as long as I know what you're talking about, even anatomically, where things are in your body, you can call it whatever you want. I had this talk the other day of stemming from the debate about the G-spot and like, should we even call the G-spot and doesn't even exist and all this stuff. And I'm like, this is—we're wasting energy because it doesn't matter what people call it. Do people know why we need to talk about it? You know, why is this important to talk about what does this mean for sexual pleasure and how that connects to sexual wellness? That's the conversation I'm interested in having. I am truly not here to like, say that people can only use certain words for certain things again, as long as you know where things are and I know what you're talking about so that I can help you. You know, the words that you use to empower yourself and then talk about your specific body and your specific experience, that is individual and like, that is up to each person what they want to do with. But that is not the hill I'm going to die on because that's not the work. And if you think that's the work, maybe you need to pivot a little bit.
Ev'Yan Whitney
We're talking so much about—well, I don't feel like we're hitting directly on it but I feel like, it's sort of in the room. The sex educators who are doing the work and the sex educators that are all about the fluff and the fun stuff and not really actually getting to the root and the core and having their values and their methodologies rooted in like, upending, you know, these roots of white supremacist patriarchal capitalism. How can we better know which one is which? Like, how can we discern the sex educators who are doing the work and the sex educators that may just be like, you know what, I don't really want to get all into that stuff. Let's just talk about you know, glass dildos and, and stuff like that. Which, like, as I'm saying these things, I just want to be really, really clear that I think that glass dildos are great. I think that G-spot orgasms are great if that's a thing that you have experienced before. I don't necessarily want for folks to think that sex education is about the grime and the gruelingness and it's hard and it's heavy. Like, we have to have fun and play to balance all of those things out. But I do think that there is a stark difference from people who are, you know, really involved in actual sexual liberation versus people that are just using those words sexual liberation, as clout, as buzzwords.
Cameron Glover
Very much so! Okay, so first of all, I think that everybody should be doing their research. And this is me included. I'm dragging myself when I say this, do more research, do even more research, and by this, I mean like asking those questions of like, Where did you get this methodology from? How did you get in the field? Where have you like learned this process from right? And like, yes, sometimes people will list certification programs or places—and you can actually learn quite a bit about someone depending on which program that they've graduated from because each program has their own reputation and their own set of like instructors. So you can, like, get a lot of information from that as well. If they have a website, are you reading their website? Their about page? The testimonials, right? Who have they worked with? Is there a pattern of people that they've worked with? Who do they not work with and what does that mean about maybe their own internal biases? So like, for me, I don't necessarily—I mean, I don't really speak on this as directly as maybe I should, but like, I don't really enjoy working with men. I just find the power dynamics with that to be—I don't really care for it. So I work with folks of marginalized genderss who are not men, and that's really just like, my audience base, you know. And again, I'm just like, "Do I have any male friends? Yes, I do still." So, yay! But like, you know, I think that there is a lot to be said both for who do we as sex educators who we prefer to work with? And who do we not as well? And if there's an audience or a demographic that we don't work with, is there a referral list? Or are there resources that they point to? Because I think at the same time, it's okay for me to be like, you know, I don't work with I don't work with private clients with men. But I have a list of educator friends that I keep in my back pocket. If anytime there is a man that's like, "Hey, are there any sex educators that I can work with?" Yes, sir. I know, like five off the top of my head. Five to ten folks that specialize in working with men and breaking down topics of masculinity. So I think that is very different from "I don't work with Black folks." Point period blank. S I would encourage folks to just like do that research. Spend time getting to know someone. Look through their website, look through their posts, what exactly are they saying. Who are they referencing? Who are they sourcing? And who are they recommending you follow, as well. Because I think that another thing with this, you can tell also a lot from like, who folks recommend as well. There was this one person I'm thinking of who is a sex coach and her work was like super good until she posted about having someone who is an abuser in the community—working with this individual. And so like, that to me, that says a lot to about like, Wow, so you either know about this or you just like don't care? And that shows so much about about your values as well. So you really want to make sure that it's not just about like, does this person is this person knowledgeable? Do they know what they're talking about? Do they have training to help me with this thing? But also like, Where are their ethics? Where are their values? And do they align with your own? And I recommend that like, across the board whenever you want to work with someone or even just follow someone on Instagram too. Like, yes, it's that deep. Because there's so much information that we process all the time. And again, there are, there's so many wonderful, great educators out there, and there's also ones that like, are very, very harmful.
Ev'Yan Whitney
One of the things that's coming up for me as we're having this conversation is that it's really, really difficult sometimes to discern who is "with it", as I like to say and who isn't. Like, I'm thinking of a certain indie sex toy store on the internet, who shall go unnamed, but you know who I'm talking about. They are notorious for posting photos of Black bodies, posting photos of fat bodies. I guess the the point that I'm trying to make is that even with all of that, even with everything that you said, it's still very insidious. There are still people in this community who are harmful, who are taking advantage of people, who are exploiting people, and really using these buzzwords to create a facade that they are doing the work when actually they are perpetuating harm.
Cameron Glover
And that also goes back to like having that community as well, because it shouldn't just be about having a community that like, you uplift and like, you know, we all climb together. And that's great thing, I'm not saying that to mock it. But I do think it's also important to have a community that you can be like, "Hey, I really trust and value your opinion. What do you know about so-and-so?" Like, if I get reached out to you by a company I've never heard of before or outreach from someone, you best believe I'm vetting them within my own community as well. I have folks that I talk to that I'm just like, "Listen, I know you have the mind of an elephant. Is there anything I should know about?" And best believe, lo and behold, sometimes it's nothing. And sometimes, it is like, "Oh, you know, there was this instance of like so-and-so and such-and-such did this thing." So, I think that's also a really important, especially if you're newer into the field. And you don't necessarily have that—it's not clout, but like, you haven't been around the block long enough to—you just weren't there when this happened, right? I think it's still important to know where you can kind of get that information because that's also part of just like, being a Black femme in this world, right? Like, I I have to check on my basis. And like, I can't be out here looking stupid.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, and I would argue too that, like, it's important to look for folks who I don't quite fit your vision of what you think a successful, popular sex educator looks like, you know? I mean, I see a lot of white folks, white-passing folks who are, you know, aesthetically pleasing and have the perfect bodies and fit within like Eurocentric beauty standards that are being put on a pedestal as being the best sex educators on the face of the earth. And, I mean, I don't know anything about them or their qualifications so I can't speak to that. But I do think that it's important for us to seek information and wisdom for folks who do not look like us. And to really check our own biases when it comes to where we're getting that education, where we're getting that inspiration. One of the things that I said in my Twitter feed was that some of the best sex educator that are in this world are the ones that you've never heard of. And so the idea that the best sex educator is the one that has over 100,000 followers on Instagram or has written several books, or has a bunch of letters after their name—I mean, some of the most incredible people that I know, who teach me on a daily basis, don't fit within that. So I think that that's another thing to consider as well.
Cameron Glover
Absolutely. And the last point that I'll kind of make on this as well: I'm really glad that you brought up that point of learning from people that don't look like us as well, because I think that's definitely a luxury that like, we can't afford to have, to be quite honest, especially in this field. And there are white folks in this field that I feel like I learned so much from that, like, helped me to get into spaces that I may not necessarily be able to get into. And I think that's also really important to know as well. Like, who are the folks that are also doing the work? Maybe they're not loud about it right? And that's a good thing that they're not like shouting it from the rooftops. But who are the people that like, you know, hire us to do like influencer work consistently and pay on time and pay well? Who are the people that are like centering us in their work specifically, in their marketing, in hiring us? Like, who are the folks that are doing the kind of like backend work as well that is required for all of us to be in the space and to do this work. I think that's also really important to know as well. So just like be mindful of both who you're following but also like, who's moving in silence in the right direction, as well. And like, shaking the table when they need to, because I'm also thinking about instances, like, certain awards show that you know, when certain people get nominated. Best believe, I took note of who was speaking up and saying something about that and who wasn't.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Okay, so I want to know who are some of your favorite sex educators. Like, if someone were to go off of this podcast and be like, "Alright, I'm gonna follow these four or five people or maybe just like a couple people," who are who are your faves?
Cameron Glover
Okay, so first of all you.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Oh my god!
Cameron Glover
You made the list! No, I generally just love the work that you do. And I love your approach to it. I feel like you really—fangirling right now! I feel like you really take the time to make this as—I don't want to use the word accessible. But like, you really take the time to make everyone feel seen and heard and validated in this field. And I think that's really, really important. Especially, like, a lot of educators kind of come from the theory aspect of things and it's very easy to be very highbrow about that. But, you don't do that. So yay!
Ev'Yan Whitney
Aww, thanks sis! I really appreciate that! I really, I really do. Okay, who else?
Cameron Glover
Yeah, so definitely Melissa from Sex Positive Families. I do not teach young people. I do not teach anyone under the age of 18. But I love the work that Melissa does, because I think that they are fantastic and just like, I'm consistently just blown away by their brilliance. So definitely them. Goody Howard, for sure. I just I love the work that she does, as well. Dr. Lex. I'm also thinking of Bianca Lauriano. And also speaking of Bianca as well, both individually and also the organization that she helped to cofound, WOCSHN or the Women of Color Sexual Health Network is just fantastic, and everyone in there and continues to blow me away because they're all just like brilliant and wonderful and fantastic.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah. Literal geniuses.
Cameron Glover
Yeah, there's just like, oh, there's so so many people. But yeah, those are the folks that are coming to mind definitely immediately.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Amazing. And there's there's a lot of overlap because those are some of my faves as well. I love Melissa. And especially I love Melissa's work—I'm going to fangirl for a minute. But I love Melissa's work and I would actually love to have them on the podcast.
Cameron Glover
Oh my god. Yes!
Ev'Yan Whitney
I just, I get this question a lot like, okay, sexual liberation is good and great for me, but how do I teach my kids? Or how do I teach this next generation that's coming up. And that's—I love that conversation. And I wish that I had just like a fraction of what Melissa knows, to just like bring that to the table.
Cameron Glover
And what I love to like specifically about Melissa's work, because of course there are educators who like, specialize in talking to children. But what I love is that they also focus on talking to parents as well and they have a really great coaching program that you can check out on their website if you're a parent or a caregiver of a young person, and like you're kind of struggling with navigating the talk, or like speaking about different topics, they have, like coaching sessions you can do with them to navigate that as well. So I think that's also really important.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes. Okay, so I guess like my final question—well, actually, I have two questions. Two final questions. The first is, what do you think is one massive misconception that people have about sex education? Like people who see it from the outside, not really seeing like what's going on behind the scenes.
Cameron Glover
So the thing that immediately popping to my mind is just like, there's only one way to do it, which is definitely not true. And I feel so inspired because the work that I do, it's not 100% in traditional sex ed, if there's even such a thing as traditional sex ed, right? Like, the mix of sex education and business coaching that I do—and I feel like more times than not I lean more on the business coach end of the spectrum. But it's just so important because I feel like, everything gets kind of expanded in doing this work and it reaches all the senses; like, I'm able to think in a more holistic way because of my background as a sex educator. And also like, I feel like I have a lot more empathy for folks. And it just helps me so much in other aspects of my life both as a podcaster and like as a business coach and in the business side of stuff, but also as a human being, as an individual. I feel like I'm able to be more of myself in this field, because sex education has kind of no blueprint. There's no kind of rule to say like you have to like, go to school for this many years and like, get a job. It's all like one giant create your own adventure book, which is kind of scary, I'm not gonna lie. And a lot of people get very intimidated by that. But the beauty of it is that there's so much even now, even still, there's still so much untapped potential, and like things that have not been dug into. So as a bonus, something that I would encourage folks who are listening to kind of do is look to see where are the gaps. So, where are the spaces between, like, what people are already talking about within sex ed, but also, where do you see there being a natural, like, oh, people aren't really talking about this? Or they're not talking about it in this specific way? And that's kind of how you fill in those gaps and that's how you find your lane and figure out your niche and all that stuff in sex education.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Well, that's a perfect segue into my last question, which is, How can people get started like? They listened to this conversation. They're ready to start doing the work. They're ready to begin doing the work from their own unique genius, and really getting to the root and shaking the foundations of these isms that create the need for sex education in the first place. What do you think is a good place for folks to start if they are wanting to enter into the sexuality professional field?
Cameron Glover
First of all the practical stuff. This is something I harp on my clients all the time. Start building your email list, and purchase your website. And your website can be just your name—your first name and your last name dot com, and start building an email list. So start building that like social foundation. Even if you don't necessarily want to be an entrepreneur, you don't want to create your own business, these are still really important things to do, because as your community grows, you want to not be reliant on spaces like Instagram or Facebook because of censorship and shadow banning. And like, I'm pretty sure there's just going to be a day I just wake up and like all my stuff is just shut down and gone. So start building up early, and having a central hub where people can connect with you and you can share different kinds of content. So definitely do that, regardless of how you want to get into the field. But the actual doing the work part: Again, find your community, find people who are kind of doing what you want to do. Follow them, interact with them. And also don't discount the fact that you're new being equal to like, you not having anything of value to share, because everyone has something of value to share. So before you make that ask—and please do not park in someone's DMs and just being like, you know, can I pick your brain? Or like, can you just tell me how to do this work? Please don't do that. Like, if they have an email button on their profile, please email them. But also, give before you ask. Something that Dr. Jess, who I also really love and I think does really fantastic work in the field, she in a workshop that I took with her she said this in passing, and it really just like had such a massive impact on me. And it was just like, asking people how you can help them. And it sounds so simple, but like, if you interact with someone, especially someone that you "admire" or you look up to and you just like you get stars in your eyes when you see them or think about this person. Like, ask how you can help them. Maybe you host a YouTube channel or podcast or something and you're just like, "Hey, do you want to like come on and we can just have a conversation about this for like, 15 minutes?" Or is there like a resource you can share with that person? Like, what can you give and how can you kind of like be of service before you even ask for something in return? And I think that's a really valuable way to think in any field, but especially in our field. Because that also, like, starts breaking down these barriers of like, everyone's competition when we're not. There's so much work still to be done that we don't have time to be worrying about competition and who's doing what. Finding ways to be more collaborative than, like, competitive I think is gonna get us a lot further. So yeah, leading with value and just like, "How can I be of service? How can I help you?" And just like asking that before asking for anything for yourself. Yeah, there's so so much. I feel like, side note, you should have me back on to talk about the business of sex ed.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes! Well, I was actually going to plug you and say, well there's a third option. You can just hire Cameron because this is what she does. Like, she helps people create businesses off of being a sex educator, being in the sexuality professional field. So I mean, you could do all those things by yourself, but we got a whole ass genius who is ready to guide you by the hand and help you take these first steps of getting your your business, your passion off the ground. Which that's what I love about you is that I get this question so much. People are always asking me, "I want to do what you do, Ev'Yan. How do I do what you do?" And I'm like, Listen, I don't have the time nor the energy to like, talk to y'all about this process. It's a lot of work! So I'm just gonna send you to Cameron!
Cameron Glover
I don't even have the time which is why I wrote my ebook. So, I have a ebook, if you're curious about how you can get started in the field and more concrete action steps beyond what we talked about here. You can go in the show notes and purchase that as well.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes, I have a link to the show notes right now you can scroll, click the link and then you will be taken to how to get the ebook.
Cameron Glover
Amazing! And I also have a free guide in the show notes as well for how to start building a successful sexuality business. So even if you're just getting started, if you've been in the field for a while, this guide is really just like, the three most important foundational pieces that you need to start building and kind of action steps on how to get started with them today so you can download that as well.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Beautiful. Cameron, thank you so much for coming on and giving us your wisdom.
Cameron Glover
This was this was really, really great.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Alright, so tell people where they can find you on the interwebs, all of that jazz.
Cameron Glover
Yes, so you can connect with me at @thecameronglover on Instagram and @cameronglover_ (because reasons) on Twitter. And if you want to follow the business side of what I do, you can connect with me @successfulsexed at all platforms. Or go to successfulsexed.com.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Fantastic. All right. Thank you so much for coming on, and I guess we'll just see each other in the iMess!
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This podcast is produced, edited and designed by me Ev'Yan Whitney. Find me on my website evyanwhitney.com and on Instagram @evyan.whitney to keep up with me and my work. The Sexually Liberated Woman is made possible with community support from each one of my very special patrons on Patreon. I literally couldn't do this without you. If you want to help sustain The Sexually Liberated Woman, go to patreon.com/slwpocast and become a patron. And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others find the show. Thank you so much for being here, and I'll see you in the next episode.